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hoppdoc
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Fastest Bolt action??
      #92870 - 29/12/07 08:47 AM

I am curious--does anyone know of anyone who has rigorously tested and compared the speed of bolt actions of various makes of rifles?? Guess if I had to choose theoretically the Blaser push-pull action might be the fastest on paper. I dunno--

Personally,I just cant get used to the thought of shooting a Blaser bolt with nothing but a circular metal spring device keeping me from losing the side of my face or suddenly meeting God due to a defective bolt mechanism.

I will not debate whether the Double is the faster with f/u shots vs a bolt-- a Double should beat even a fast bolt handily.BUt by how much?? Anyone have more info?
Whether it could beat a bolt by the same margin if a large bore caliber with major recoil were compared would be an interesting experiment.If anything it mightr stack the deck MORE in favor of the Double.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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peter
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #92876 - 29/12/07 09:33 AM

im not very fast with bolts, but my fastest was with a blaser, i dont think it is unsafe in any way i rather just use my dbl rifles.

peter


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EricD
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #92877 - 29/12/07 09:40 AM

Hoppdoc,

I used to own a Blaser R93 in 375H&H, and would say that it was a bit faster than other regular bolt action rifles I've used a lot such as the M98, ZG-47, Wby MKV, M70 etc. But with dedicated practice on regular bolt actions, the Blaser wasn't so much faster that it really make any real difference when hunting or shooting IMO.

With practice, most people can shoot surprisingly fast with an M98 or similar action.

Erik


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xausa
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #92886 - 29/12/07 11:15 AM

For years I have been competing with a bolt gun in high power rifle shooting, a part of which is rapid fire, in which the shooter is required to start in a standing position, with the rifle loaded but the bolt open. As the targets appear, the shooter assumes a sitting or prone position (depending on range) and fires five shots, then reloads, using a stripper clip and fired the remaining five shots, all in a period of 60 or 70 seconds. The same target is used at both 200 yards sitting and 300 yards prone, with a 7" "10" ring and a 3" "X" ring (for breaking ties).

I have determined that as a rule it takes me 12 seconds to get in position, settle down and fire the first shot, and ten seconds to reload and fire the sixth shot, leaving 38 or 48 seconds to fire the entire string, that is, 3.8 seconds per shot at 200 yards sitting, or 4.8 seconds per shot at 300 yards prone. Since I like to allow a few seconds at the end of the string to compensate for any difficulties, in actual practice it is more like 3 and 4 seconds per shot, most of which is spent recovering from the previous shot and aiming. Only metallic sights are allowed.

In the course of identifying the best rife to use in competition, I have fired virtually every bolt action I could get my hands on, including Springfields, Mausers, Enfields, SMLE's, Remington 40X's and Winchester Model 70's, both pre-War, pre-64, and post 64, as well as such exotics as the original Newton, the Mannlicher-Schoenauer, and the Styr CISM. For ease of action and perfection in feeding, I have never found anything to match the pre-War Model 70 Winchester. Once, when I fumbled a clip reloading and had to load the cartridges from the mat, I had only 8 seconds left when I started to shoot. Even so, I managed to get them all off and all were in the 13" black at 200 yards.

My .505, which is built on a P14 Enfield action, is another smoothly operating rifle. I once put four shots into a Cape buffalo as it ran past me at a distance of about 30 yards, three of which were in a group which could have been covered with a playing card. It seemed that the more I shoot that rifle, the slicker it gets.

One of the competitions at the National Matches involves the use of unaltered military bolt rifles, and in it the most frequent rifle used and the rifle inevitablely used by the match winner is the 1903 or 03A3 Springfield, although, in my opinion, it is nowhere nearly as smooth as a Model 70.


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zimhunter
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: xausa]
      #92890 - 29/12/07 12:42 PM

xausa,
That's a terrific course to shoot. While I have never fired it with a bolt gun I have many times with an M1.
In 1956 at Ft Chaffee, Ark I fired the 200 yd stage in the prescribed time and shot a possible. Got a very nice engraved lighter from the General for the chore. I found you acheive a rhythm and things do indeed go fast. I have always believed that the recoil recovery time is the deciding factor in speed. My understanding has always been that the Lee Enfield has always been the speed shooting bolt gun to beat. I had a Heym straight pull in 35 Whelen carbine that while the bolt was fast the recovery time was not.


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smicha6551
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: zimhunter]
      #92902 - 29/12/07 05:02 PM

I've mentioned a few times that I'm a Blaser fan (other than the S2) - one of the reasons is that the action on the R93 is faster than other bolt rifles. With a little practice its super fast. There's a cutaway image of the R93 shown on the Blaserpro forums that shows how the locking system works - I shoot it without concern.

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ozhunter
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: smicha6551]
      #92906 - 29/12/07 05:47 PM

I have used most types and brands of bolt actions but I can shoot and reload my Blaser faster than any other bolt rifle.

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EricD
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: ozhunter]
      #92909 - 29/12/07 07:37 PM

While it sounds like most so far agree the Blaser fast to reload, do you guys think it's so much faster that it really makes a difference when hunting?

I can't say that it made much of a difference for me in reality.


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GoneShootin
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: EricD]
      #92911 - 29/12/07 09:21 PM

Bolt actions ALL have an inherent problem built into them when it comes down to speed. Its the Nut behind the Bolt.

(im sorry you all would have heard this thousands of times)


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hoppdoc
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: EricD]
      #92917 - 29/12/07 11:55 PM

The inherent "advantage" of the Double rifle is the almost instantaneous second shot--

I am curious if anyone has actually measured personal times in tenths of a second regarding the difference between something like a 470 NE and a 458 WM shooting the same weight bullet out of guns of similar weight.I would think the difference would be measurable, maybe up to 3-4 tenths of a second.

How much would the Blaser action decrease this difference??

Why am I curious and wanting to quantitate speed??

Got a new member,a young professional in my hunting club who very goodnaturedly has handled my Double and jokes with me about my "antique heavy" gun with 2 shots versus his "lighter" Ruger 338 bolt gun which holds more ammo and can shoot game further out. I respond and say 2 fast shots with the absolute reliabilty of the second shot of a Double vs a short stroked bolt and death!!

Nice fellow, but he definitely doesn't want to experiment at the next level and really compare shooting at speed with maybe my 458 Bolt shooting full bore rounds against my 500 NE.I know he is not crazy about the recoil and he knows the Double would be faster---even so,he just doesn't appear to understand the perceived need for the small increase in 2nd shot speed in exchange for the loss of the extra shot in the bolt.This is sounding like one of those 9threexfifty7 tests!!!

Any video's out there with fellows needing that 2nd fast shot? Or better yet dudes shortstroking their bolt under stress when attacked by an animal!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (30/12/07 12:00 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #92921 - 30/12/07 01:38 AM

Hoppdoc, my ears were burning!

Far be it for me to introduce the Dreaded Name to the discussion, but I remember Aagaard did a personal test, and another with other shooters {two articles IIRC} on this subject. I may be mixing up his sight tests with one of them.

I will look around for them, but my filing system has the appearance of a well organized library ten hours after Katrina, a dozen hand grenades and a bulldozer passed thru, so don't hold your breath...

As for the bolt speed, using the "middle finger trigger finger" method, bolt operation by a trained British competitor on the Lee Enfield was mind boggling. I have read several RPM counts timed and it is not far off what can be obtained with a semiauto. I saw a demonstration some years ago and I would not have believed it had I not seen it. AND with chargers slicked and prepared, continuous fire also just about kept up with the SLR. Using this method, the Lee Enfield action can be worked amazingly fast.

As a lefty who reaches over the top, I am no speed demon. But surely you fellows know that when it comes to handwork, speed is not the most important factor???

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92932 - 30/12/07 04:46 AM

I think part of the reservations people express about shooting a bolt gun stem from some misconceptions about how to shoot them.

The British seemed to think (at least in the past) that the gun should be taken down from the shoulder and cycled after each shot. I have even had people tell me that it aided in sight acquisition (??!!). Another misconception has to do with the cycle of opening and closing the bolt as a four step process (up, back, forward, down). Done properly, it becomes a two step process, with the index finger shoving the bolt handle upwards and to the rear at the same time, and then the thumb or heel of the hand pushing the bolt forward and down at the end. This is difficult to explain, but those who have access to David Tubb's excellent tapes and CD's on high power rifle competition can see the process vividly illustrated.

A friend and I once attempted some tests with the SMLE as a result of a magazine article attributing a speed of 37 rounds per minute by skilled British rifleman using that rifle, which caused the Germans in one WWI battle to think they had encountered a machine gun battalion. We were hampered by lack of stripper clips, so the best we could do was simply emptying the magazine without reloading. We found that 10 shots in 16 seconds was not too difficult to achieve, all the shots in the black of a 200 yard target reduced for 100 yards at 100 yards (6 1/2"). Undoubtedly it is a fast shooting rifle, hampered by somewhat crude sights.

A friend of mine once had the privilege of shooting on the same point at Camp Perry with Gary Anderson, the Olympic Gold Medal winner in free rifle and smallbore competition. Gary is also a southpaw who was shooting a pre-64 (right handed) Model 70 Winchester in competition. His first string at 300 rapid was a clean with a modest X count, which meant that all his shots were in the 7" diameter "10" ring and several were in the 3" diameter "X" ring.

A range alibi was announced, which meant that the string would be fired over because the targets had been pulled too soon, or some other malfunction. Gary calmly shot another clean, this time with a higher X count. A SECOND range alibi was called, and again Gary cleaned the target, with an even higher X count. Watching him cycle the right handed rifle with his left hand was a sight to behold.


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9.3x57
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: xausa]
      #92935 - 30/12/07 05:40 AM

Quote:

The British seemed to think (at least in the past) that the gun should be taken down from the shoulder and cycled after each shot.


Watching him cycle the right handed rifle with his left hand was a sight to behold.




The British method I am referring to above is shot with the rifle butt in contact with the shoulder, not lowered, with your two-step bolt manipulation. The bolt knob is actually not ever released as the trigger is pulled with the middle finger as soon as the bolt is in battery. At top speed the accuracy I've seen produced is not comparable to your competition shooting, but watching a guy do it that knows how sheds light on why some old "Colonel Blimps" resisted the development of the semiauto rifle in the British Army, thinking it unnecessary.

As for reaching over the top left-handed with a righthanded rifle, the use of iron sights makes it much easier, obviously and typical hunting rifles with scopes mounted require the rifle be rotated to the left to open up the space allowable to get at the bolt, making it very hard {depending on the actual scope/bolt handle layout} to do with some rifles. Scoped rifles can be shot with the butt remaining on the left shoulder but it does require a great deal of practice.

As for your southpaw, what you are describing is very impressive shooting, and any Righty that disagrees with you should have a go at shooting a left-handed bolt rifle fast sometime for proof otherwise!!

almost forgot...

I just saw a hunting video last week where Craig Boddington fired a followup shot into a buff, just stopping his run to get the shot off. He reloaded pretty quickly, using his support hand to work the bolt, dropping the rifle to operate the bolt. I am curious as to whether he routinely uses his support hand to work the bolt, or whether he usually just reacheds over the top and used his support hand merely as a result of stress in the moment or because the rifle was scoped.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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xausa
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92938 - 30/12/07 08:43 AM

Quote:

"The British seemed to think (at least in the past) that the gun should be taken down from the shoulder and cycled after each shot."




I didn't make it clear in the above, but what I was referring to was British sporting rifle shooters, not the Army types.

I have used the middle finger-trigger finger technique, too, but don't find it any faster than the index finger-trigger finger method I normally use.

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DarylS
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: xausa]
      #92969 - 30/12/07 12:52 PM

9.3x57- you beat me to it. The #4 will also handle any pressure developed by the .458 WM without even snivelling(55,000PSI, I believe).
; We used the #4's re-barreled and chambered to the .308 WInchester (7.62x51 = T-56, I believe)- Anyway, the rifles worked just fine with 60,000PSI + loads, so a mere 50,000 to 55,000 should be OK. Nowadays, some clubs show a goodly number chambered for the .223. Interestingly enough, the standard extractor will handle almost any rim size, including the .22 hornet, without modification.
: The action and magazine will also take a .45/90 case, 2.4" long, and at 50,000 psi will deliver about 2,300fps with 400gr. softs or solids. Using 450gr. softs or solids, the velocities should be in the 2,200fps range. This case is a bit easier on bolt thrust than more tapered designs as well. Having a .505" head diameter makes for slightly less taper than the .458 Mag's .513" head. Modern brass is plenty strong enough for this chambering. I suppose it could be looked at as a poor man's 'African' or 'Alaskan' rifle, considering it's ballistics alone.
; I think it'd be great with a .50 2-1/2" case. Delrin liners can be made and screwed to the mag walls for straight line feeding. A 520gr. Cast bulet at 2,000fps to 2,100fps sounds kinda kinky.
; I have a #4 that I rechambered for the .312 Express - a few years before I found Ken Waters had already chambered and named that one. It uses a .350 Rem. mag. case necked for .312 bullets and does 2,960fps quite easily with 180's.
; The Enfields are very fast actions and it only takes a few hours of practise to become proficient as speed shooting with one.
: The Germans thought the Brits all had semiautos in the first war, due to the fast firing of their #3's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Carlsen
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: DarylS]
      #96616 - 12/02/08 05:54 PM

I actually tested this for an article I was writing on the .303, with a mate who had a Mauser 96 straight pull. I was using a sportered No.4 Savage. We stood and fired many shots offhand at 50 yards. Both timing for rounds away and hits on the target were to be counted.
In the actual exercise, the straight pull finished slightly earlier by a fraction of a second - basically the same. We didnt bother counting the hits on the target in the end because the Mauser jammed on the last round and we couldnt open the action. Belting it with a rocks turned out to be a bad idea. We later got it open when it had cooled down sufficiently.
I declared the Enfield the winner on reliablity of function.
I have hunted with the .303, and it will give you a follow up shot as quick as any lever action in my opinion.
In my researches I found that the use of the middle finger was never actually taught by the military, although it's possibe some troops may have picked up the idea themselves. I can't really see how it could be any faster than the normal practice.
The deer cullers of New Zealand who contended with enormous herds of deer they had to shoot on foot in the mountains had a technique they called 'fanning the bolt' - this may have been the same thing.
I do know that NZ troops in Malaya would deliberately shoot like this to try and simulate semi auto rifles. This was told to me by vets.
Undoubtadly to my mind the Lee enfield is the fastest bolt action. AS for reloading - damned if I can get the stripper clips to work for me...I always get one rim lined up behind another at least...

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuabe to you for the rest of your life


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: Carlsen]
      #96623 - 12/02/08 09:18 PM

I reckon the fastest bolt actions must be those used on the straight-pull 5-shot Biathlon rifles, such as those made by Anschutz. However, I am not aware that they come any bigger than .22 rimfire...

Other than that, I also reckon that the Enfield is tough to beat on speed and reliability. I don't own a Blaser, but have shot them - my impression is that the bolt has to be cycled relatively far to the rear. Combined with the angle of the bolt handle, I reckon this might actually cause cycling the bolt to be slower than it would at first appear, although alot is down to practice I suppose.


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500grains
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: EricD]
      #96640 - 13/02/08 06:18 AM

Quote:

While it sounds like most so far agree the Blaser fast to reload, do you guys think it's so much faster that it really makes a difference when hunting?





No. But it matters when thinking about hunting.


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EricD
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: 500grains]
      #96644 - 13/02/08 07:30 AM

Quote:

Quote:

While it sounds like most so far agree the Blaser fast to reload, do you guys think it's so much faster that it really makes a difference when hunting?





No. But it matters when thinking about hunting.




So what you're saying is that it doesn't matter anywhere else but on the Internet.


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Carlsen
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: EricD]
      #96724 - 14/02/08 03:59 PM

The internet is where the truly great questions are pondered. Without it we would be left only with shooting and hunting.

--------------------
If you carry a cat home by the tail you will receive information valuabe to you for the rest of your life


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jro45
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #96747 - 15/02/08 01:08 AM

My friend and I have been practising Useing the bolt as fast as we can. Then shooting at a 12 by 12 card board.

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allenday
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #96813 - 16/02/08 01:15 AM

No bolt action is any faster than the man behind the rifle will allow it to be, and anyone who thinks that some of these off-beat New-Age bolt-guns are fundamentally faster than a Mauser 98 or a Model 70 in the hands of an well-coordinated, well-conditioned expert user, that person had better guess again.

In many ways, this discussion is a lot like comparing Glocks to S&W revolvers. Many newer shooters think that revolvers are some sort of dinosaur, hoplessly slow to deploy and shoot, etc. And yet, I've seen, many times, expert revolver men instantaneously draw the precisely get off every shot on target with such lightning speed that the eye could scarcely follow what was happening. And anyone of these guys could draw and empty their revolvers before most even semi-competent (average) Glock guys could even think about what they were doing.

The man behind the rifle (or handgun) is the true measure of the whole package........

AD


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9.3x57
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: allenday]
      #96814 - 16/02/08 01:38 AM

Quote:

The man behind the rifle (or handgun) is the true measure of the whole package........

AD




True enough!!!

A video of ME shooting one of my AUTO's in "hot competition" against Jerry Miculek and his ole-timey, obsolete wheelgun would be plenty enough to prove your point!!

Having said that, the issue of what the action does for a guy isn't totally esoteric and it is most meaningful as regards to the average or sub-average fellow who ISN'T highly skilled in gymnasticating the rifle. In that scenario, one action may indeed be easier to operate and "substantially" faster to use than another. I think taking a barely-trained fellow and handing him a Mosin-Nagant and a Lee-Enfield would prove this point pretty well.

Then of course there is the NEED for speed in the first place. How much speed is necessary for field use? Yes, yes, yes, I know someone will say that a .0001 second improvement is of vital importance to that upcoming buff hunt, but in reality so many other factors combine to impact field shooting that EXTREME speed is of little actual use in 99% of hunting scenarios, most probably including dangerous game shooting.

I actually once many years ago hit a running deer twice out of five shots with my SAKO .375, working the bolt off my shoulder. Since then I'm having trouble remembering when a single-shot would have been a serious handicap...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #96817 - 16/02/08 03:08 AM

It all boils down to people thinking of the speed in getting off the second or third shots when their concentration should be on placing the first pefectly.
: The only time the second or third shot's speed of delivery is important, is for multiple targets.
: Make the first shot perfect and there is no need for a magazine machine - so- it's either going to be perfect or don't shoot - pretty simple. A good quality single shot will work for any game - John Taylor thought highly of his singles & if an elephant poacher can get by with a single, why can't you?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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xausa
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Re: Fastest Bolt action?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #97027 - 19/02/08 08:54 AM

This http://www.frappr.com/?a=viewphoto&id=3823381&pid=9240786 is my last Cape Buffalo. He was awakened from his afternoon siesta by some rock throwing natives, who ran him right past my vantage point on a hillside overlooking the clump of bushes he was sleeping in. I was perched on a six inch wide rocky ledge about five feet above and maybe 30 yards away from his getaway route, which went directly across in front of me, much like a Station 4 shot at skeet.

I fired four shots from my P-14 Enfield actioned .505, all of which hit, and three of which were on the right shoulder blade and were close enough to each other that they could have been covered with a playing card. The amazing thing was that I didn't lose my balance, perched precariously on the ledge, although my gunbearer was standing behind me prepared to catch me if I did. This buffalo stopped so suddenly that he plowed up the dirt with his nose.

Years earlier, while hunting on private land, we came across a pack of hunting dogs which had just killed an impala and were in the act of devouring it. Although normally protected, these were inside the game fence and thus considered varmints. I shot four times with my .300 H&H pre- 64 Model 70 Winchester and dropped three of them. Admittedly, the first one shot was standing looking at me, but the other two were moving at top speed and in different directions.

I cite this simply to illustrate what a trained rapid fire target shot can do, especially if in addition he is experienced in shooting moving targets on the skeet field


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