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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels
      #92748 - 27/12/07 05:34 PM

Posting this as a new thread......

I took my 9.3X62 Simson rifle to the range last week & tried some loads. I had installed a Leupold 2-7X scope.

I had collumated the rifle with my Leupold collumator. I also bore sighted it against the top of a pine tree 1 mile away - usually works very well for me & the top "cross" of the pine makes it easy to center the bore as well as the scope cross hairs.

I tried 3 bullets - Nosler 250 gr Balistic Tip, Barnes 250 gr TSX & Lapua Mega 286 gr soft point. I had 2 loads each - total 6 loads.

At the range, I first tried to get on paper at 25 yards. The first shot was way off the mark - 8" high & 6" to the left. The next two were also out despite adjusting the scope. After getting it on the 2 inch circle, I moved to 50 meters & again I had trouble with the Nosler going off the paper. Finally I got it on the bull at 50 meters. By now all the lighter loads were gone & I was begining to worry that I had bought a lemon & spent all this money on restoring it only to have a jar of rancid marmalade!

I then tried 3 shots of the Nosler BT at 100 meters & got a 1" group about 2" high (after adjusting the scope for the umpteenth time). The next 3 shots from the Barnes TSX were in the bull - 1" group. May be the rifle was not a lemon after all....! Final 3 shots with the Lapua were 1" low & 1" group!! I just cannot believe this. So, the Lapua can be zeroed for 100 meters & the Barnes will shoot to 200 meters & the Nosler BT to 250 meters!

I'll now load up the same 3 loads & do a full chronograph test. I am expecting 2450 to 2600 with the 250 gr bullets & 2300 to 2450 with the 286 gr bullet. The 3 final loads were 56gr to 59 gr of Varget. I had already chronographed the starting loads with open sights a few weeks earlier.

The BIG QUESTION I have is - has anyone else had much experience with full length ribbed barrel rifles behaving like this? Was my rifle "settling" into the new stock?

The only other rifle I have had that behaved so strangely despite collumating & bore sighting was my 358 Win Douglas SS barrel on a Mod 70 action that was not free floated. I thing the fact that the barrel had virtually full length contact with the stock resulted in the bullets shooting very high. Once I got it close to the bull, I was able to shoot 1 hole groups with Sierra 225gr bullets & 1" with Hornady 200 gr bullets.

I would appreciate any info / feed back on the matter.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: Nakihunter]
      #95114 - 25/01/08 05:48 AM

I would hazzard a guess that the barrell and the scope mount screws in the reciever "do not look the same way", ie they are not perfectly lined up.

This is not that unusual with some rifles even some new made ones.

The barrel could be a little wopper-jawed in the action, or the scope base screws might not be perfectly alligned on the top of the reciever, or a little of both.

If the rifle shoots good, and the impact point does not move drastically as the barrel heats up then I would not worry about it at all.

From the groups you are getting I would think the barrel and bedding are good.

Basically if it shoots good do not try to fix what ain't broke.

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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: NE450No2]
      #95152 - 25/01/08 01:18 PM

NE450No2 - Thanks for that. I think you might be on to it. I did notice that the mount screws were not uniform in their depth & therefore the scope alignment would be off to the side. I am new to this type of mounts & decided to use them as they fit the rear bridge without have to grind off the flange. The stock seems to sit very well. The oil stains & action impressions are minor & there appears to be no stress.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: Nakihunter]
      #95186 - 26/01/08 02:51 AM

Depth of screw holds will not effect alignment.
; If the bore colminates easily within the central adjustment areas of the scope, there is no problem with alignment of the barrel and action. It is common for any action to have from .003" to .010" misalignment of the bolt, action threads and front of action face. Even 40XBR Remingtons, of 10 rifles measured up, the average was .006" off. This is why there are so many 'accuracy' Gun Smiths in the States who 'True' actions.
; Some guns just don't throw the bulletrs where the barrel is pointed. There are a number of reasons for this from bedding, to alignment of the bore inside the barrel - if the deep hole drill wandered then wandered back - common on deep hole drilled barrels, the bore points in an odd diferection. If it colminates well, this isn't the problem.
: The rib might be making the elevation difference. Since you can sight it within the Leupold's normally small adjustment range, it isn't too bad and you've done a good job - lucky in the close grouping with various bullets. Many rifles aren't so lucky. With ribs, there is uneven heating as the rifle is fired, and uneven warpage results. Hunting rifles are supposed to hold 3 rounds close to the sights and fewer will hold 5 - although those also exist.
; Most rifles you buy need to be glass-bedded in the recoil lug area, then, on Mausers the steel tube surrounding the tang screw needs to be shortened or removed. This tube's overlength is a contributing reason most older Mausers and especially Husky's split the tang of the stock. It is not necessarily an overlong action tang that does it - the action's recoil lug area, not being glass bed for a perfect fit, allows the action to rock back on recoil. The overlong steel tube does not allow a tight fit there either, and the whole action moves back, splitting the stock in the tang. The fix is to remove or shorten the tube, and glass the action - then epoxy the split and cross pin it. Much better to 'fix' it before it splits.
; Glass bedding the recoil lug and removing the steel plug eliminates the splitting problem. The action cannot move and then neither actions screws touch wood - perfect - better, more consistant accuracy results!
; It will probably need to be re-sighting after bedding. If anything, it will be more acurate too. If it is already bedded, Great! - that shows in it's excellent shooting now.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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88MauSporter
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Reged: 06/06/07
Posts: 530
Loc: Alaska / Texas
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #95202 - 26/01/08 04:24 AM

Nakihunter:

What type of Mount is this? I am trying to mount a scope on my Husky 9.3s (98 and 96 actions) with Warren or Talley QD type mounts. I tried with Briley's here in Houston with the 96 and the Warren mounts that are supposed to fit without removing the charger slot ridge, but they said they couldn't as the mount rocked and didn't fit flat to the rear bridge.
I have two taper octagon barrel Mauser 88 rifles, but have had no consistancy issues. Though I don't shoot them past 200 meter. (My eyes aren't that good!)

--------------------
"A hunter should not use a rifle that will kill an animal when everthing goes right; you should use one that will do the job when everything goes wrong." 88MauSporter

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buckbrush
.300 member


Reged: 23/08/07
Posts: 120
Loc: Alberta
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: 88MauSporter]
      #95207 - 26/01/08 05:00 AM

Nakihunter, have them bed the base with epoxy.

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: buckbrush]
      #95216 - 26/01/08 09:26 AM

Thanks guys. Daryl, you are awesome mate. I'll shout you a NZ beer!

You can see the rifle on my thread "Simson 9.3X62 - my new toy"

The stock is a new English walnut that was done by a guy who worked at H&H in the 80's. He duplicated the original Simson stock & moved the cheek piece up for using a scope. The rear steel tube has been shortened. The recoil lug is not bedded but has a good bearing on the stock. There is also a small lug on the barrel but the screw for this has not been used in the new stock as the original floral steel bit on the stock was damaged while drilling out the rusted screws. If that screw is put on, the barrel might shoot closer to the bore sight (but I won't bother).



The base & rings are Tasco / Hilver / Lynx - made in Australia. The photo shows the steel post on which the rings lock. The front right screw for the ring is 1 mm out & the rear left screw for the rear ring is also 1 mm out. The other two screws are correspondingly in. So I presumed that the scope was pointing right of the bore line. The rings are low cost but strong & reliable.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: Nakihunter]
      #95249 - 27/01/08 05:27 AM

Nakihunter - glad the rear tube has been shortened. The recoil lug area, however will 'peen' from recoil, compressing the wood fibres, over time - sometimes sooner than others, depending on the density of the walnut.
The recoil lug area should actually be bed in an epoxy comound of some sort - microbed, acraglass, etc, or my favourite, Decon Plastic Steel. I've used LePage's plastic steel and it worked but isn't as good a product as Devcon. The lug that used to have a screw up from the bottom of the barrel, should have a screw up from the bottom of the barrel and be bedded in at that spot as well - however - with the recoil lug bedded, this is not important, but then, the lug should be free floating and not touch the forend. This will cause high shooting depending on the amound of pressure involved. Wiht the entire barel free floated, the gun may not group closer, but will put more rounds into that same group without the group wandering. This is the primary reason for free floating a barrel - consistancy. The rear 1/2" of barrel in front of the action should be bed in epoxy - this allows the barrel some support, but that support should not be on the tpaer of the chamber of the barrel. This creates uneven pressure as the metal expands and may be why this method of bedding (popular 1930's through to 1970's) needed to be re-done every few years. With the method I suggested, once should do the life of the owner.
: This nice looking rifle should have this done by someone capable of doing a good job. The job is a simple one and shouldn't be more than about $75.00 to $100.00 US. Some outfits charge $150.00 to $200.00 and this is too much for the work involved.
: With the Accuracy Smiths in the States, it is amazing how much work can be done for $100.00 to $150.00 & these guys are the top of the crop - the best. It is generally the unskilled gun smiths who charge too much and then your rifle suffers along with your pocket.
; In my opinion, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Nakihunter
.375 member


Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: DarylS]
      #95278 - 27/01/08 10:17 PM

Daryl Thanks for the advise. I'll bed the recoil lug - I use Acraglass or Bisonite. Yes, I have free floated & glass bedded a few rifles with some great results. I screwed up on a Sako once & learn't even more! With this one I plan to just bed the recoil lug at this stage. I might free float it as well - but I want to keep shooting it after bedding the recoil lug to see how she performs. The best glass bedding jobs cost about US $75 here. Din Collings is my favourite though he is past 80. He has a huge network of knowledgable friends & customers including Steve Hornady, Roy Weatherby & Mr. Musgrav - all of whom have visited him at his shop in Wellington over the years. Din is currently fixing a Brownell's butter knife bolt & new bases / rings on my 1903 Greek Mannlicher Schoenauer. I'll post pictures of that rifle after I have it finished.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26514
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Accuracy of full length ribbed & octagon to round barrels [Re: Nakihunter]
      #95314 - 28/01/08 09:08 AM

Quote:

Daryl Thanks for the advise. I'll bed the recoil lug - I use Acraglass or Bisonite. Yes, I have free floated & glass bedded a few rifles with some great results. I screwed up on a Sako once & learn't even more! With this one I plan to just bed the recoil lug at this stage. I might free float it as well - but I want to keep shooting it after bedding the recoil lug to see how she performs. The best glass bedding jobs cost about US $75 here. Din Collings is my favourite though he is past 80. He has a huge network of knowledgable friends & customers including Steve Hornady, Roy Weatherby & Mr. Musgrav - all of whom have visited him at his shop in Wellington over the years. Din is currently fixing a Brownell's butter knife bolt & new bases / rings on my 1903 Greek Mannlicher Schoenauer. I'll post pictures of that rifle after I have it finished.


; Sound as if you have everything under control. Best wishes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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