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: No one in their right mind would choose either for anytime, anywhere use in Africa, but either would have it's place, I suppose, given the circumstances.
: This is a silly comparison, but then, that's just my opinion and everyone has one of those.

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I could have said .375 H&H or .416 Rigby instead of 30-06...but then the answers would be obvious. The 30-06 and the 45-70 both share the same Ft/Ibs, and both can be loaded in a leveracion with scope. In reading Boddington book, there is a place where he states that he wouldn`t mind shooting buffs with 30-06. I think the 30-06 has a slight edge in the versatility dept, other then that they are both good/bad cartridges for africas biggest, but where most people has agreed for many years that the 30-06 is too small for africas biggest, now suddenly the 45-70 is having following controvertial or not

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: No one in their right mind would choose either for anytime, anywhere use in Africa, but either would have it's place, I suppose, given the circumstances.

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: I am not certain which would penetrate farther but it would be fun to find out.

By the way, who makes a .30 cal 240 grain FMJ? Also, not to overANALyse a just-for-fun question, but depending on length of the actual bullet, a 240 might require a tighter-than-standard 1/10 twist, something along the lines of 1/8 or 1/9.

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; I think an 8" might work. I do recall the typical 10" twist wasn't too hot when the 250gr. Barnes were running around the moose woods here with some guys. Accuracy was quite poor, except in the magnums which, of course, drove them somewhat faster. The 2,200fps or 2,250fps of the '06 was deemed to be a bit too slow for these pencils. If you want to compare this with the .318Rigby, don't, the .318 shot a .330" bullet, I believe and twist requirements are, of course, slower for the larger bore, shorter bullet.
: A 'good' 250gr. solid .30 cal bullet 'should' out-penetrate any 480gr. or 500gr. .458, 500gr. .470 or 520gr. .50 when they are all driven at the same velocity as penetration, given identical bullet construction is dependent upon stability inside the target material and sectional density alone. Is this now saying that the '06 is 'better' because it penetrates more deeply? Is this deep penetration the only criteria to establish a ctgs 'desirability' on dangerous game? I think not to both.
: Then, to compare the suitability or a 250gr. .308 bullet from an '06 against a 400gr. or 450gr. .458 bullet from a .45/70 - why? what does this prove, asking a bunch of guys who haven't used either, which they would prefer.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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: I am not certain which would penetrate farther but it would be fun to find out.

By the way, who makes a .30 cal 240 grain FMJ? Also, not to overANALyse a just-for-fun question, but depending on length of the actual bullet, a 240 might require a tighter-than-standard 1/10 twist, something along the lines of 1/8 or 1/9.

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; I think an 8" might work. I do recall the typical 10" twist wasn't too hot when the 250gr. Barnes were running around the moose woods here with some guys. Accuracy was quite poor, except in the magnums which, of course, drove them somewhat faster. The 2,200fps or 2,250fps of the '06 was deemed to be a bit too slow for these pencils. If you want to compare this with the .318Rigby, don't, the .318 shot a .330" bullet, I believe and twist requirements are, of course, slower for the larger bore, shorter bullet.
: A 'good' 250gr. solid .30 cal bullet 'should' out-penetrate any 480gr. or 500gr. .458, 500gr. .470 or 520gr. .50 when they are all driven at the same velocity as penetration, given identical bullet construction is dependent upon stability inside the target material and sectional density alone. Is this now saying that the '06 is 'better' because it penetrates more deeply? Is this deep penetration the only criteria to establish a ctgs 'desirability' on dangerous game? I think not to both.
: Then, to compare the suitability or a 250gr. .308 bullet from an '06 against a 400gr. or 450gr. .458 bullet from a .45/70 - why? what does this prove, asking a bunch of guys
who haven't used either, which they would prefer.

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Good points Daryl.

The .318 Westley Richards is basically a .30-06 with a 250 gr bullet in .330 calibre.

Bell used his .318 extensively for elephant with FMJs, but then I don't like quoting Bell as he was such a remarkable man.

However the .318 was a very popular chambering.

Compare this to the .45/70 and perhaps the equivalent Imperial .577/.450 which was quickly superseded once better cartridges were available.

IMO in hunting dangerous game, calibre size is nothing without adequate penetration.



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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (28/12/07 03:22 PM)

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The .577/450 loaded with black powder, was about 100fps faster than the black powder loaded .45/70 when used with the same weight bullet. Smokless powder does change that, somewhat.
; I can see where people who aren't handloaders might look at WW or RP factory .45/70 ammo and sneer at the .45/70's ballistics. I understand there would be confusion in this case. Afterall, how can anyone take 1,320fps with a 405gr. bullet seriously, for anything that might bite back?
; Considering the same weight bullet with modern designed jackets and cores, driven at 2,100fps changes things a bit.
; The BP rounds ran around 20,000PSI, whereas these modern rifles can handle up to 43,000PSI. This changes things a bit.

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Thanks for the info. An African PH once said to me the .577/.450 was the equivalent of the .45/70 so I just relied on that. I knew someone would correct me if I was mistaken.

This PH was actually sympathetic to the .45/70 in lever action form as he had a good number of horses and used them for horse back game viewing safaris. He had an idea of using a .45/70 as a backup rifle.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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