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SteveH
.300 member


Reged: 26/12/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon
"Nitro Proofed for Black"
      #92572 - 25/12/07 01:37 AM

Saw the following in a description of a Boland 450 NE on Cabelas web site :

"[...]double rifle nitro proofed for black."

I'm at work and don't have my references available (should be working but it's Christmas Eve after all...).

I cant' remember the history of the 450. I believe that it was originally BPE cartridge.

Does this mean that it's only proofed for 450 BPE? I'm not familiar with Belgian proof marks.

Merry Christmas.

-Steve

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: SteveH]
      #92582 - 25/12/07 04:00 AM

Steve

It means it was designed as a BP Rifle but was proofed and regulated for a light load of smokeless. Probably a 325 grain bullet. It would carry the BP ballistics.



There are a lot of them around. I used to have a Patton from Scotland. I sold it to a fellow and he sold it to a PH in Zim who used full loads in it for Elephant. That is until he blew it off the face and ruined it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: mickey]
      #92585 - 25/12/07 04:18 AM

Quote:

I used to have a Patton from Scotland. I sold it to a fellow and he sold it to a PH in Zim who used full loads in it for Elephant. That is until he blew it off the face and ruined it.



Mickey, for curiousity's sake, do you know what the load was and how many rounds of full power Nitro the PH fired thru the gun before it loosened up?

I won't ask who it was...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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SteveH
.300 member


Reged: 26/12/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92586 - 25/12/07 04:27 AM

Thanks Mickey!

Merry Christmas!

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Omnivorous_Bob
.333 member


Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: SteveH]
      #92603 - 25/12/07 09:51 AM

I'm sure others here know much more about it, but my understanding is the NFB loads originated in order to take advantage of the new powders in existing BP proofed guns. While the new full nitro loads were vastly more powerful, there was obviously a huge market with older guns. Smokeless allowed the same ballistics at lower pressure, or as applied in NFB loads, better ballistics (usually a heavier bullet) while staying within the the BP proof.

During that transition period, some guns were then actually made speciifcally for NFB loads. This was probably because they could be lighter and could use existing designs and could utilize those stockpiled actions that were on hand. They still offered an improvement over BP loads while the marketers of the day could trumpet them as 'new'; after all, who'd want a BP gun when cordite was available?

They also got the job done for those not needing maximum power. Off of the top of my head I believe the 500 BPE uses a 340-360 gn bullet, the 500 NFB a 440gn, and the 500 nitro a 570 grainer at a higher velocity. A sort of intermediate load, but much closer to the BP than the nitro end of the spectrum.

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #92606 - 25/12/07 10:43 AM

9ThreeXFifty7

My old rifle was sold or traded, not sure which to a PH who is long gone. He used it for about a year I believe before it was so loose even he was afraid to shoot it. He sent it somewhere and they measured it and found the hinge pin hole itself was elongated and the barrel lugs were compressed to the point that the gunsmith didn't feel he could even add a shim that would work.

The PH tried to sell it to a few clients but had no luck and then died of a Heart attack I believe.

I don't know what happened to it, probably lost when the warvets seized his families property.

Steve

You can see this is a Nitro for Black by the proofs, It is also labeled a 450 Express, not a 450 3 1/4 NE.

If you are interested make sure that the chambers and action check out. It is the same cartridge as a 450 NE and if it was used as such it could be damaged. 450 Express are usually about 2 pounds lighter also.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: mickey]
      #92637 - 26/12/07 04:32 AM

We covered the Boland in a previous string. It's a BPE. Nitro for Black, by definition, is BPE proof. There's no difference whatsoever, and Nitro for Black doesn't represent a separate class of gun in any way. There's nothing that can be safely fired in a Nitro for Black rifle that isn't also appropriate for a BPE. These get a little confusing for some folks because proof is for BPE max pressure using smokeless.

The BPEs remained quite popular for driven game shooting on the continent for quite a while, despite the introduction of newer smokeless loadings like 9.3X74R. The Belgians continued to build them until quite late, when proof was automatically nitro, which leads many to assume that such guns are full nitro proof, which is not the case.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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SteveH
.300 member


Reged: 26/12/03
Posts: 118
Loc: Hillsboro, Oregon
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92640 - 26/12/07 05:16 AM

Thanks guys. That's what I thought. It's already sold, but I was looking at it and the comments struck my curiosity.

Merry Christmas folks!

-Steve

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mZugu
.224 member


Reged: 16/10/06
Posts: 6
Loc: Nericia in Sweden
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: SteveH]
      #96471 - 10/02/08 06:28 PM

BTW, if you should reload for such an old .450 BPE with moderns powders, what would be your choice of powder charge and bullet? Which would the prestanda be?

m'Zugu

--------------------
Dedicated armchair hunter

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herrdoktor
.275 member


Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Spain
Re: "Nitro Proofed for Black" [Re: mZugu]
      #96481 - 11/02/08 02:49 AM

Hello, mZugu:
I have a Francotte almost identical to the mentioned Boland, in 450 BPE (the third fastener is square, not the usual round Greener). The rifle shoots quite well (2" apart at 50 meters, sometimes better) with 71 grains of Tubal 5000, a 1" wad of green foam and 350 grains Hornady and Woodleigh bullets. With the same charge and wad, also shoots very well with Hornady 300 grains HP bullets. It makes a very good job in our driven hunts in Spain, very light and handy.

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