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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Scoping a .470 NE?
      #92042 - 19/12/07 04:13 PM

I just purchased a Chapuis .470 NE double rifle. I was planning on scoping the rifle after seeing another rifle with the lower powered Swarovski PVI Illuminated Reticle Scope. I love that scope after seeing it. The rifle already has been drilled for scope mounts and I know that Chapuis has mounting options available for this rifle. However, I am first wondering if the scope can stand up to the recoil of the rifle and second as to whether it is really wise to scope a caliber that large. I will use the rifle to hunt Buffalo mostly with the hopes that one day it will also go after elephants with me. I would not use a scope for elephants if that time comes, but would like to get some suggestions on the use of the scope for buffalo. The rifle is nice looking as is and it is hard to change the look and I know if I scope it, it may also need to be regulated again. Also, I want to be able to still use the sights and they are so low, that I am being told I would need to get new flip up sights that are raised. However, there are small blocks cut out of the rib where it is drilled that appear to be removable to install a low scope mounting system.

I just ordered reloading equipment for the rifle and plan on shooting it a lot before going on Safari with it in 2009. I can not afford to shoot factory ammo in high quantities, but have found that I can afford to shoot quite a few of the Woodleigh bullets if I reload to cut down costs. The largest expense is the brass. I hope to shoot at least 500 rounds prior to using it on safari and more if possible.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92048 - 19/12/07 05:11 PM

tm

A good buddy of mine has a 470 Chapuis, with a Swarovski, the one you like, in Claw mounts.

I have shot it. It is a slick rig.

The beauty of a scope in claw mounts, is that when you need/want it it is there, when you don't, it is not.

I have killed several elephant, all with iron sights. I have also killed several cape buff, all but one with iron sights.

The one I took with a scope was at last light in heavy cover with heavy shadow. The range was @60 yards. If I had not had my Swaro scope, with the illuminated reticle, turned on, I doubt I could have made the shot.

PS even if you go to Africa, have the scope, and do not use it, it will be

1. A comfort knowing it is avialable if needed.

2. Really handy for wild pigs.

If Aleko at Heritage Arms cannot fit the Chapuis Claw mounts check with JJ Perodeau, at Champlinarms in Enid Oklahoma.

The Claw Mounts are worth every penny.

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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: NE450No2]
      #92070 - 19/12/07 08:19 PM

What caliber is your friends rifle in with the scope?

--------------------
"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92074 - 19/12/07 08:47 PM

tm
It is a 470 CHAPUIS.

A most excellent double rifle.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92106 - 20/12/07 05:32 AM

Quote:

I just purchased a Chapuis .470 NE double rifle. I was planning on scoping the rifle after seeing another rifle with the lower powered Swarovski PVI Illuminated Reticle Scope. I love that scope after seeing it. The rifle already has been drilled for scope mounts and I know that Chapuis has mounting options available for this rifle.



Personally, I would never scope anything over .375. Good express sights are all you need.

If you decide to do it, you'll find that many will recommend a pivot mount for it that is cheap and readily available. Don't bite, and don't try to save money. Send it to J. J. for claw mounts. They're vastly superior and worth every thin dime. On a large bore double, mounts need to be strong and detachable in less than a couple seconds. Claws detach faster and are stronger than any other detachable mount.

Quote:

Also, I want to be able to still use the sights and they are so low, that I am being told I would need to get new flip up sights that are raised.



If that's what you're being told, you need to find a new "gunsmith", because the guy you're using isn't one. The sights on a new Chapuis are normal height. If the gun fits you, the sights should align perfectly with a fast, natural mount. If this gun doesn't do that for you (if you're too high on the sights when the gun is mountly quickly), then IT DOESN'T FIT - because it doesn't have enough drop for you and needs to be bent. It has nothing to do with the sights being too "low". A flip up leaf should NEVER be used for a standing leaf. The suggestion that taller folding sights need to be fitted instead of correcting the poor stock fit is a hoot. This is one of the reasons that I suggested to you that buying a new gun only made sense if you ordered it built to your dimensions rather than buying it off the rack.

The double rifle, especially so the large bore, is an iron-sight gun that is occasionally scoped. It should be fit to the shooter for fast, natural alignment with the sights. That fit won't be ideal for a scope, nor should it be, as the scope on a heavy double is an auxiliary sighting system, not the primary.

Don't let anybody screw with the sights just because the stock doesn't fit you!

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tmskislc
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Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92122 - 20/12/07 07:51 AM

That is good to know. The actual comment was that if I installed Claw Mounts on the rifle, you would not be able to see the current sights on the gun because they were too low and the claw mounts would be too high to use them without them being raised once they were installed. The gun fits me very well and comes right to sight when I bring it up. I can close my eyes, bring the rifle to shoulder, open my eyes, and I am lined up perfectly. I made sure of this prior to purchasing the rifle. That was one of the reasons I did not get the Krieghoff. It just did not line up for me or feel correct for my body build. I will be looking at the Heym at SCI before I add sights etc to this rifle to ensure that I do not want to upgrade to that rifle first. Unfortunately, that will mean that I do not send it out for work till after SCI which could be a big mistake with all the orders that will probably go through at the event. I really do not think that I will make the change to the heym because I have shot the rifle and it shoots well and fits me well. Also, I am just too partial to upgraded wood and fancy scroll on the guns and mine is beautiful with upgrades to both. The Heym PH would just not satisfy those cravings I have for aesthetics so I would need to purchase the 88B professional hunter. This would mean several thousand additional dollars to upgrade to the Heym and I am very happy with the Chapuis thus far.

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Anonymous
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92132 - 20/12/07 09:12 AM

There's a good reason 99.9% of 470's you see are NOT scoped, either by there owners, or the factory by which they were made. The calibre was designed for up close shooting, with tremendous stopping power. If you want to shoot animals from further away, I would recommend a 375H&H and scoping it instead.

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338X74R
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Reged: 19/05/04
Posts: 51
Loc: Norway
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92135 - 20/12/07 09:36 AM

Quote:

Send it to J. J. for claw mounts. They're vastly superior and worth every thin dime. On a large bore double, mounts need to be strong and detachable in less than a couple seconds. Claws detach faster and are stronger than any other detachable mount.




In addition the scope can be mounted lower, and IMHO the mount looks better on the gun both with and without scope.

With regards to strength, however, I would like to draw you attention to the new german book "doppelbüchsen" (double rifles) by Norbert Klups. The author considers pivot mounts ("Schwenkmontagen", like ERA or EAW) to be stronger that claw mounts. The reasons he lists are :
1. The solid area that will "receive" the recoil is larger (34 square millimeters vs. less than 24 square millimeters for claws)
2. the correct mounting of claws is so difficult that very few smiths can do it 100% correctly. Mounting a pivot mount is comparatively simple.

Edited by 338X74R (20/12/07 09:38 AM)

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driftwood
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Utah, United States
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 338X74R]
      #92139 - 20/12/07 11:11 AM

I would like to add acquisition of the target at close quarters is much faster with open sites than with a scoped rifle. Every second counts when you are in a dangerous game of kill or be killed. You should concentrate on learning to shoot with open sites with that large a caliber.

--------------------
oleson

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 338X74R]
      #92140 - 20/12/07 11:13 AM

tm

The claw mounts JJ installs will not interfere with the original iron sights that are on your rifle.

He also installs the scope low over the barrels.

The scopes he fitted on my 450/400, and my drilling were done in the same way.

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92180 - 20/12/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

That is good to know. The actual comment was that if I installed Claw Mounts on the rifle, you would not be able to see the current sights on the gun because they were too low and the claw mounts would be too high to use them without them being raised once they were installed.



Again, I think that speaks of someone who doesn't know how to install claw mounts. Properly installed on a double, they don't interfere with the existing sights.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 338X74R]
      #92182 - 20/12/07 04:53 PM

Quote:


With regards to strength, however, I would like to draw you attention to the new german book "doppelbüchsen" (double rifles) by Norbert Klups. The author considers pivot mounts ("Schwenkmontagen", like ERA or EAW) to be stronger that claw mounts.



I've read other works that disagreed.

Quote:

the correct mounting of claws is so difficult that very few smiths can do it 100% correctly.



Yes, it requires a gunmaker instead of a gunsmith. Since no one else is really qualified to work on a fine double rifle, that isn't a burden. The best is rarely easy or cheap.

Quote:

Mounting a pivot mount is comparatively simple.



But the pivot isn't anything like as fast or as simple to use as the claw.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: driftwood]
      #92183 - 20/12/07 04:57 PM

Quote:

I would like to add acquisition of the target at close quarters is much faster with open sites than with a scope.



Absolutely true, but don't say that on the open forum here. You'll have the Aagaard groupies foaming at the mouth.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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smicha6551
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Reged: 09/08/05
Posts: 88
Loc: NYC & Kuwait
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92185 - 20/12/07 05:31 PM

I'd say you'd be faster with iron sights, so long as you practice enough with using them. Perhaps that should go without saying, but I'm sure plenty of people pick up their .470's and not really take the time to get good and fast with them. I'm willing to bet for most folks a non-magnifying scope such as an Aimpoint would be faster, but I can't see too many people mounting one on a DR.

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: smicha6551]
      #92485 - 23/12/07 03:14 PM

I have had various doubles with scopes and find they are very usable with the scope. I would have to disagree that the claw mounts are an appreciablely faster to remove than good pivots. I would also disagree that they are less appealing when the scope is removed. I will definitely agree that the claw mounts require more work to install than pivots and once installed they are definitely NOT adjustable normally although some have some windage adjustment in the rear base. Pivot mounts on NEW doubles such as the Merkel and Chapuis are very easy to install and can easily be done by any one who can safely use a screwdrive. My Merkel 8x57 Mdl 141 has MAK pivot mounts installed with a Leupold 1.5x5 Vari X III. It took less than 30 minutes to install the pivot mounts and took less than a week to get the mounts from Europe. They have many different styles to adapt any scope to almost any current manufacture rifle. Reasonably priced at around $500. They have an excentric spacer in the rear ring that allows for quite a bit of windage adjustment. Quality is absolutely top drawer. They have special mounts for rail mount scopes and for dot type rear sights. I reccomend them highly. They are very co-operative and helpful in determining what you need. The only thing they need to know is the make and model of the rifle and the make and model of the scope so they get the proper Height to clear the objective bell. On claws if you wish to use a large objective scope you either have to mount it very high or use a front ring that attaches to the ojective bell, with a pivot mount it only has to clear the barrel since it swings sideways. I personally prefer the pivot, but as I said that's a PERSONAL decision.

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: zimhunter]
      #92638 - 26/12/07 04:51 AM

I saw what appears to be Talley rings
on a Searcy. They look as if the base
is the 1/4 rib. I have not seen it in
person only a picture. I have them on
my 458 with no problems.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: driftwood]
      #92660 - 26/12/07 10:47 AM

Quote:

I would like to add acquisition of the target at close quarters is much faster with open sites than with a scoped rifle.



This depends on how close is close.
Most of the dangerous game I have hunted has been shot between 20 to 80m in scrub where a scope was far easier to acquire the target.
Within 20m now thats where open sights are great and thats why open sighted doubles are perfect for Elephant. Not so for Cape Buffalo though.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: zimhunter]
      #92668 - 26/12/07 12:04 PM

Quote:

I would have to disagree that the claw mounts are an appreciablely faster to remove than good pivots.




I haven't had anything to do with claw mounts, but I have used EAW pivot mounts and have never experienced anything that would make me think that they are not fast enough to operate.
Using a good technique, a scope mounted in an EAW pivot system can be taken off or installed in very little time.
We are talking WAY under one second to either remove or replace the scope.
As far as difficulty in operation of a pivot mount goes, I find it hard to believe anyone would have any trouble.
The rifle is held with one hand, and the lock is released and the scope rotated and removed with the other hand.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #92679 - 26/12/07 04:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I would have to disagree that the claw mounts are an appreciablely faster to remove than good pivots.




I haven't had anything to do with claw mounts, but I have used EAW pivot mounts and have never experienced anything that would make me think that they are not fast enough to operate.



Of course not, as you don't have experience with both. Zimhunter doesn't either as he doesn't like anything that isn't cheap.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92680 - 26/12/07 05:48 PM

If you want to take a look at a set of claw mounts go to the Cabelas web site under fine rifles and lood at the Marcel Thys 375 H&H/20ga.

This rifle is kind of unique in that it has 3 claw bases on the rifle to accomodate 2 different scopes.

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4seventy
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92688 - 26/12/07 08:44 PM

Quote:

Of course not, as you don't have experience with both.



No, I don't have experience with claw mounts.
My point was that the pivot mount system can be used to remove or replace a scope plenty fast enough to satisfy my hunting needs.
Like I said, it takes me less than one second to either fit or remove a scope with the pivot systems that I have had experience with.

If you find that claw mounts operate appreciably faster than that then we'll have to start calling you "Quick Draw McClaw"!

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #92701 - 27/12/07 02:44 AM

Sorry to disappoint you 400 but I DO have experience with both and more so. As to liking inexpensive (to differentiate between CHEAP and INEXPENSIVE) I see little reason to pay big bucks to just pay big bucks. I have a little knowledge of guns and African hunting and while it probably doesn't compare with yours I think it's pretty accurate. I know the popular feeling is if a double isn't English and cost big bucks by a big name maker it is of inferior standing in the realm of DGR's. Claw mounts require more fitting because there is no manufacturer who builds to any standard so produces a product that MUST be hand fit. This is ineptness to the highest degree by those manufacturers. If watchmakers that make high quality watches such as Rolex,Breitling,Baume & Mercier, Omega and others can mass produce them in the millions it stands to reason that gun parts can be mass produced with equal precision if the market is there. Incidentally these watches are neither inexpensive OR cheap. MAK seems to be able to do it with pivot mounts and it could as easily be done with claw mounts if the market existed. ANY scope mount that costs over $500 in my estimation is NOT inexpensive although that does not gaurantee it's not CHEAP. I just become weary of the elitist attitude of a number of Double Gun owners. Now let the fire fight begin.

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butchloc
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 230
Loc: faribault mn
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: zimhunter]
      #92777 - 28/12/07 06:28 AM

its not really to hard - i did it so it must be easy - 1st make sure your rib is solid not hollow, then chuch it up in a mill and take a dovetail cutter and cut two small dovetails in the rib on each side where you want the rings to go, then go get a set of warne detachable rings. simple and cheap

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zimhunter
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: butchloc]
      #92788 - 28/12/07 08:36 AM

I totally agree with you, I have fitted both Ruger rings and Leupold Double dovetail (did not WANT a quick release feature) to Doubles and also to an Integral rib 375 Mauser. Just takes a little care. Have also fitted Claws which is made harder by the poor design and execution from the manufacturer. Last set I bought and tried to fit to my Merkel would have had to be attached above the rib so I chose to mount a pivot mount which fit perfectly.

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4seventy
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92805 - 28/12/07 12:23 PM

If I was intending to scope a .470, I would prefer to use claw mounts over anything else.
Pivot mounts are plenty fast enough but that is not the only issue.
If you know someone who can fit claw mounts correctly, that would be the way to go IMO.
Here in Aus, I really don't know any gunsmith whom I would be confident could do the job the way it really needs to be done.
If your double already has the rib milled drilled and threaded for bases you are part of the way there, and from all reports you have capable gunsmiths/makers who can do the job right.

What I'm trying to say is that I would PREFER claw mounts, but would not feel handicapped if I had to use a quality pivot mount system.

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