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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
.470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames?
      #92041 - 19/12/07 04:04 PM

I have been trying to read through as many posts as I can in the archives to get more familiar with the double rifles as I just purchased my .470 NE. I want to use the Woodleigh Solids in my rifle, but was planning on trying some Swift A Frame loads in the rifle because I am so fond of their bullets in my bolt actions I use to hunt with. I saw a post that talked about issues with using partitioned bullets in the rifles. Does anybody have any advice on whether the Swift A Frames can harm the barrels of my new rifle. If so, I will stick with Woodleigh softs in my new Chapuis Rifle. The post was kind of hard to understand as it just stated that he was not using Nosler Partitions due to recommendations from prior posts.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92044 - 19/12/07 04:39 PM



I wouldn't use Swifts in a DR.

Stick with Woodleigh, after all, your using the Solids.


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NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #92049 - 19/12/07 05:19 PM

tm

I have shot eland and a few cape buff with my 450 No2 with 480 Woodleigh Softs and 500gr Swift A Frames.

I have recovered both types of bullets.

Both of them have performed perfectly. I have not been able to tell ANY difference in their performance.

I personnally have no problem shooting them in my British 450 No2.

In a 470 Chapuis I would have no problem shooting them or 500 gr Trophy Bonded either.


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: NE450No2]
      #92065 - 19/12/07 07:27 PM

I have heard this about the Swifts also, but then again I also think Woodleigh softs in .400cal and over are just great so don't see any use for the A-frames in these calibers.

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: ozhunter]
      #92068 - 19/12/07 07:42 PM

oz hunter

I agree, at Nitro Express velocities the Woodleigh Softs work PERFECT.

I have used them in my 9,3x74R on a LOT of game, and my 450/400 3 1/4", and my 450 No2 on a fair amount of game as well. You could not ask for, nor require better performance.

In my 450 No2 the Swift A Frame has done as well as the Woodleigh.

It is good to have more than one choice... But if you can get the Woodleighs, it is not necessary to look any farther.


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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: NE450No2]
      #92071 - 19/12/07 08:23 PM

Thanks guys, the Woodleighs are easier to get and cheaper than the A-Frames when reloading. It seems that people have confidence in them and that is good enough for me. I will start with the softs since the are considerable cheaper than the FMJ and work up to the jacket loads later on.

--------------------
"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"


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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92072 - 19/12/07 08:24 PM

Anybody got a good location to purchase brass for 470 n.e. Pretty expensive everywhere I have looked so far.

--------------------
"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92088 - 19/12/07 11:45 PM

I use NORMA 470NE Brass that costs around AU$5- Per case.

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92093 - 20/12/07 01:57 AM

That's unfortunatly is all I have found as well---not sure there is such a thing as "cheap 470 brass"

There is the place out of Californina--Hunttingtons--I believe--do you have their info??

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (31/12/07 09:10 AM)


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driftwood
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 20
Loc: Utah, United States
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Ripp]
      #92617 - 25/12/07 04:21 PM

You must be referring to Huntington's. Web site is www.huntingtons.com. I shoot a 450 NE and have some Jamison brass which is not being made. They supply hard to find brass from different manufacturers. Butch Searcy suggested I get in touch with them and they got back to me and am waiting for Hornady brass which will become available this spring. They carry cases from all over the world. 470 should not be a problem.

--------------------
oleson


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DDouble
.300 member


Reged: 17/02/06
Posts: 131
Loc: Brazil
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: driftwood]
      #92624 - 25/12/07 11:56 PM


Woodleights FMJ are out of stock in Midway, is there any other place I can get them in the US?

--------------------
Ddouble


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: DDouble]
      #92650 - 26/12/07 06:29 AM

I would try the Huntingtons site shown above--I purchased all my "double" reload supplies from them

If they don't have it--they will have some coming in...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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butchloc
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Reged: 18/12/04
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Loc: faribault mn
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Ripp]
      #92778 - 28/12/07 06:30 AM

i use the a frames in a merkel with no problems. IME the A frames penetrate much deeper than woodleigh softs. I've had the woodleighs open up to quickly and not get the penetration I want

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: butchloc]
      #92814 - 28/12/07 01:08 PM

I am a firm believer in the A-Frames--however not so sure I would use them in an older English Double or any older Double for that matter--was a different type of metal used back then--in todays new guns, it would probably be o.k.--

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Ripp]
      #92837 - 28/12/07 05:58 PM

The owner of Swift Bullets told me he makes 470 A Frames so he can have some to shoot in his 470 double. If I remember correctly it is a British Rigby.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: NE450No2]
      #92847 - 28/12/07 11:26 PM

The story I got once was that Swift makes a harder copper alloy bullet than others such as Partitions. Whether that is true or not I do not know. That would give some credence to worries about using them in old doubles, but you do not have an old double.

But then one turns around and uses steel jacketed solids, which the rifling cuts into in many cases I suspect through the gilding copper. So how can Swifts be worse than Woodleigh steel-jacketed solids?

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Will]
      #92852 - 29/12/07 01:26 AM

I was told by several on this site NOT to use solids on my old English double...along with Paul from Jeffrey double rifles...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Will]
      #92859 - 29/12/07 05:49 AM

First off, the idea that the potential damage with hard bullets in double rifles is only associated with "old" rifles is pure myth. New DRs built of "modern" steel have had the same problems. Exceptionally hard bullets that resist obturation shouldn't be used in any double.

The "problems" some ascribe to steel jacketed solids in doubles are largely internet invention. They have a lead core with no homogenous "H" section which makes them easily compressible in the bore. I've shot Woodleigh and Kynoch steel solids in doubles for years, and have not had, nor heard of, any problems with doing so. I don't feed them a steady diet of them, nor is there ever any need for anyone to do so anyway.

What is a "hard" bullet, and what is not? Most folks don't have a ready way to quantify that. I think I do, and my own experience with the Swift A Frame convinced me that I would never fire one in a double rifle.

One of my doubles, nominally a 9.3mm, was regulated with 300 grain bullets. Since Swift makes a .366" 300 grain A Frame, and 9.3 bullets in that weight are hard to come by, I decided to try them. This rifle has very tight bores - factory ammo was loaded with .367" bullets, but the bores slug .363" - so I size down off the rack 9.3 bullets in a Corbin reducing die before loading. Sizing down .003" is a snap. A jacketed lead core bullet requires somewhat more pressure on the press handle to go through the die than does full length resizing a bottleneck rifle case. Over the years, I can remember using Speer, Norma, RWS, Hawk, and Woodleigh, including Woodleigh's steel jacketed solid. None ever presented a problem, and the steel jacketed solids really do compress.

I've sized down the Woodleigh 286 grain steel jacketed solid, no problem. Were my press bolted to a thick steel table top, I might have been able to get the Swift to enter the die by jumping up and down on the press handle like an organ grinder monkey. As it is, my press is bolted to a wooden bench top made of 2X12s. When I gave up on the Swift, I had a length of steel pipe on the press handle for a cheater, the bench top was bowed and beginning to crack, and the bullet still hadn't begun to enter the die. I gave them away. A bullet that hard has no place in a double rifle, regardless of age.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Will
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Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92860 - 29/12/07 06:23 AM

If one could only patent some of the bullshit on these forums, they'd be rich!

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Will]
      #92863 - 29/12/07 06:37 AM

Please explain that comment--although quite funny..would truly like to hear your response---I have heard and read so many conflicting reports on this subject..it seems no one really knows what the hell to do---I asked the Westley Richards shop and they had no problem with shooting solids through--yet when I talked to my gunsmith he told me absolutely not to do it with an older double..soooo. there you have it...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: Will]
      #92865 - 29/12/07 07:28 AM

Quote:

If one could only patent some of the bullshit on these forums, they'd be rich!




Seems to me like our resident Kansas novelist has tried....

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #92868 - 29/12/07 07:44 AM

400 NE-
Great response on the swift bullet--If you can't force it as you described it, no way should it go through a Double rifles barrel!!!

Not to change the subject but how about the GS monometal flatnose banded bullets?? Would the banding protect against obturation??What's your opinion?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #92873 - 29/12/07 09:09 AM

Quote:


Not to change the subject but how about the GS monometal flatnose banded bullets?? Would the banding protect against obturation??What's your opinion?




Mono bullets are NOT good in a double--bands will reduce pressure but the hardness of the bullet itself is still an issue.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92880 - 29/12/07 10:11 AM

Use Woodleighs. They're very, very good bullets.

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tmskislc
.224 member


Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: .470 NE Loads Any issues with Swift A Frames? [Re: 4seventy]
      #92934 - 30/12/07 05:34 AM

The Woodleighs are a lot easier to get and it appears from the comments that they work well. I know that my rifle is already regulated for them, so as long as they work well in the softs as the comments suggest, then I figure I might as well use them. I just have had fantastic results with the A-Frames prior and I am a die hard lover of them in my 7mm. Mag rifle. I have shot everything from Duiker to Eland with it and all have been one shot kills. I have shot many deer, elk, and pigs in the states and have never had any negative results from the bullet on any game taken. I had several negative results with the Nosler Partition on elk prior to switching to the A-Frames in my .300 Weatherby. We had shot several elk on one trip and they acted like they were not even hit and we tracked them forever with one having three shots in the boiler area that should have taken him down. All my elk shot with the A-Frames have went down immediately and have been one shot kills. My brother shot one elk that he used two shots with my rifle, but even he said it was mortally hit on the first and had already went down. It was trying to get back up so he shot it a second time. My fondness is due to performance in the field and they are great bullets based on what I have seen. I don't know why there was such a vast performance different between the Nosler and the Swift A Frames, but the animals were basically hit in the same areas and the results were completely different. I think the Noslers just shot right through the animals and did not expand well under the close ranges and the high velocity, whereas the A-Frames did and the difference in shock took the animals down quicker.

--------------------
"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"


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