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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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375RugerNo1
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Reged: 18/12/07
Posts: 96
Loc: VA, USA
Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown book
      #91889 - 18/12/07 09:41 AM

I posted this in the double rifle section as well to draw more hits.



Gents and Lasses, I’m new to the forum. I’ve been enamored with Double Rifles for years now but have no possible way to purchase one (at least not now or in the next 10 years). I’ve made do with my love for the Single Shot rifle (Ruger #1s mainly). It was pointed out to me that you can build a double rifle on a shotgun action and that there is a book by Ellis Brown detailing just how this process is done. I am hoping to receive this book for Christmas this year but was curious as to the actual quality of this book and whether or not building a double rifle on a shotgun action is a reasonable and possible venture.

Any advice on this endeavor and or reviews of the book would be welcome.

Thank you for your time and thoughts
Pat
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown book [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #91892 - 18/12/07 10:53 AM

Hello Pat, and welcome to NE.com.

There are a number of members who have made the conversions you are asking about, although not me. I just wanted to extend a welcome.

Where in VA do you call home?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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375RugerNo1
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: CptCurl]
      #91937 - 18/12/07 05:04 PM

Curl, Thanks for the welcome! Interestingly enough I reside in Alleghany County where I was born and raised, just outside of Covington on top of a mountain. I’m a member of the Alleghany Gun Club and spend a fair amount of time shooting at the Club range which is about five minutes from my abode. I also enjoy reloading, hunting, blacksmithing (when there is time and space), fishing and fly fishing, (I recently purchased a Redington CD series rod/reel (8weight) for bass/saltwater fishing) which I discovered involves an entirely different level of fishing. I’m guessing you’re possibly a member of the Club as well?

Pat

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Huvius
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #92181 - 20/12/07 04:40 PM

Pat,
I have read the book (borrowed) and found it to be interesting.
You will find a wealth of information in these forums which will probably be as valuable though. I don't want to knock the book, but there are a few areas where I take issue.
One is his method of "proofing" his guns. His apparatus for holding the gun actually helps to keep the gun closed which is not an adequate approximation to real life. Also, he goes on about soldering barrels into a monoblock being inadequate, yet he has no problem dove tailing and soldering lumps into the monoblock. This seems to me to be a much weaker joint than soldered barrels based simply on the surface area differences.
Maybe somebody on the forum can educate both of us on this.
Huvius

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Marrakai
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Huvius]
      #92205 - 20/12/07 11:11 PM

375RugerNo1:
I think the book is well worth having, because it basically proves the concept and gets you thinking. I would not do everything the same as Ellis Brown, but clearly his methods work. Read it with an open mind, and an eye for doing some things better.

When I bought the book we were buying only about 50 US cents per Aussie dollar, so it cost me over a hundred bucks delivered. Food for thought! ...but I have never regretted buying it.

BTW, I hunt often with a .577 Light Nitro double built on a Greener 'Empire' shotgun action, as most long-time members here will know. Details of the double are found here. My views on the .577 Light Nitro chambering can be read here.

I didn't build the gun described. I bought it third hand but have met both previous owners. If I was commissioning it from scratch, it would be 2 inches longer with a lot more barrel taper and maybe a half-pound lighter.

This is a good opportunity to promote the maker of that gun, Rolph Bachnick, as I notice his advertisment in the latest 'Hammers Back' (Vintagers Down Under newsletter). Although I would have designed my conversion a little differently, I can't fault the workmanship.



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Marrakai]
      #92210 - 20/12/07 11:33 PM

Thanks Marrakai - I certainly enjoyed your articles and as you say, your 577 light nitro provides food for thought! Have just this minute ordered the book.... luckily for me in the forex rate is substantially in my favour

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #92293 - 21/12/07 11:47 AM

Thanks for the responses gents.
::rubs hands:: I hope she read my mind and gets it for me!

I see a lot of discussion on acceptable shotgun actions for these conversions. Does he cover such topics??

Thanks for your time and knowledge
Pat

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Bramble
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #92294 - 21/12/07 11:56 AM

It is a good background read and was what piqued my interest some time ago.
However, a lot of knowledge and skill is assumed.

Incidentally for Huvis, I am not here to defend Brown, but the dovetailing and soldering of a lump was done to restore a 16 guage and not to build a double rifle.

Regards

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Huvius
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Bramble]
      #92299 - 21/12/07 12:45 PM

My mistake... I remember now.

I guess it is true that a rifle projectile has much more "grip" in the bore than a shotgun charge thus its tendancy to push the barrels off face is greater. Perhaps soldering lumps into shotgun barrels could be seen as sufficient when the same would not be prudent in a DR.

Still, given the strength of soldered joints these days, and the surface area of barrels mated to a monoblock, I would be interested to see a study of a barrel chambered in a lower pressur cartridge assembled in this way. I bet it would work. It may be helpful in regulating too since the solder could be heated and the barrels rotated within the block to get the barrels to converge - two overlapping circles cross at two points. Think of your barrel (right or left) shooting in a circle as it is rotated on a fixed axis (at the breech).


Huvius

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Huvius]
      #92314 - 21/12/07 01:50 PM

Are there other books that fill in the gaps that Mr. Brown leaves?
I'm open to any recommendations!!

Thanks
Pat

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Bramble
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #92396 - 22/12/07 10:58 AM

The trouble as I see it with books about this sort of subject, is that in principle the things that you have to do actually would only fill a few pages. There is no way to write a book and discribe how in anything other than simplistic terms. For instence, stoneing the barrels onto face would occupy a couple of lines but took me a solid day of excrutiatingly precise work.

The only way to learn I believe is as I wrote in another thread on this subject, to build a fake set of barrels out of cheep materials (mild steel)and a scrap action.

I am about to start making a .470 for a friend and if there is enough interest here in buying a relitivly cheep soft cover or electronic step by step book then I will write one with photos to illistrate. ( and get somebody who is not dyslexic to edit it :-) )

Regards

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ArnoldB
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Bramble]
      #92399 - 22/12/07 11:46 AM

http://www.tirmaillyforum.com/mildot/viewtopic.php?t=42124
That's what happens when it's badly soldered.
A good solder joint will hold those 470 tubes on the B25 mentioned onhere.
A good diy solder joint on something like that, I don't think so. Best to leave it up to a good barrel maker in my opinion.

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Ron_Vella
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: ArnoldB]
      #92404 - 22/12/07 12:53 PM

The reason for that barrel separation jumps right out at you, a very poor solder job. The shiny areas have good adhesion, the dark areas have none. To do this job properly, both the barrel shank and the inside of the monoblock tubes MUST be well fluxed and thouroughly "tinned" with solder BEFORE assembly. To hope for 100% coverage through capillary action is like believing in the tooth fairy.

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Huvius
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #92409 - 22/12/07 01:41 PM

Interseting that this example of a failed union is in a smallbore with a pretty large barrel outside diameter. Plenty of room to place a set screw or two through the barrel flat to assist in keeping it together.
Consider the many types of takedown rifles. Myriad interrupted threads, pins, screws, levers etc. and they all seem to keep from blowing their barrels off.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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beleg2
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Huvius]
      #92417 - 22/12/07 03:30 PM

Bramble,
An Ebook would be a very good idea.
Count me please.
Thanks
Martin

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #92448 - 23/12/07 05:46 AM

I took gunsmithing class in building double rifles on shotgun actions from E. Brown prior to his writing his book on same subject, and I have built numerous double rifles using his system, without a problem. Naturally, some people with little or no experience should attempt to take on such an activity. I took antique clock repair classes from one of the best antique clock repairmen in this country, and he told us that some people should not work on anything more mechanically complex than a paper clip, and through the years, I have found his assessment to be sooo correct. I think this rule applies to building double rifles on shotgun actions too.

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Bramble
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #92476 - 23/12/07 12:06 PM

+1 on what Ronvella wrote. I would love to see what the rest of that joint looks like.

Also there is soft solder and soft solder. There is a vast difference between a 95% cadmium 5% Silver solder and a 99.3% Tin 0.7 % copper solder. One has ten times the tensile strength of the other.

Regards

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Bramble]
      #92490 - 23/12/07 04:31 PM

It seems that the vast majority feel that it is a solid book but not all encompassing. It should be supplemented by a lot more research and the pestering of those who know more than I about this subject. I’ve spent many hours working on a piece of metal shaping and forming it in the heat of the forge and on the hard and unforgiving face of the anvil only to discover that the tempering processes I had used on smaller knives etc. would not suffice, back to the books I would go. I thoroughly enjoy challenges especially ones that result in a functional but elegant product. I hope that the members of this forum will be open to questions if and when I begin this undertaking (which won’t be any time soon as I understand I will need to build my knowledge and financial base to a much higher degree beforehand.).

Thanks
Pat

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375RugerNo1
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Reged: 18/12/07
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #92629 - 26/12/07 01:28 AM

Well gents, she got me the book so now I'm reading like a fool...all I need now is a metal lathe hahaha:) First things first!

Thanks
pat

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375RugerNo1
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: 375RugerNo1]
      #93149 - 01/01/08 06:18 PM

I most certainly get some odd looks while I am walking on an inclined treadmill reading this book at our YMCA. Most people seem to know what a shotgun is, but not what an action is...and much less...a double rifle or why it would be more expensive etc. I suppose most of the YMCA members are used to me reading various reloading/ballistics/historical firearm books while I engage in moderate cardiovascular exercise, but this seems to be a bit out there for most of my YMCA acquaintances.

Great book so far. I definitely understand the mechanics of a double rifle a bit better. Long ways to go though!

Thanks for everyone’s time and knowledge

Pat

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JabaliHunter
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Bramble]
      #93186 - 02/01/08 03:44 AM

Quote:

I am about to start making a .470 for a friend and if there is enough interest here in buying a relitivly cheep soft cover or electronic step by step book then I will write one with photos to illistrate. ( and get somebody who is not dyslexic to edit it :-) )


Count me in, Bramble. Sounds like a great project.

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oupa
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #93192 - 02/01/08 05:16 AM

Bramble, by all means please do record the process as a book whether for publication on paper or CD. It'd sure be a lot easier for me to keep track of than searching for your posts when I need answers!

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buckbrush
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: oupa]
      #94843 - 21/01/08 10:46 AM

I would be in for one of those books.

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Judson
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: buckbrush]
      #95759 - 02/02/08 09:46 AM

I have Mr. Brown's book and have spoken to him several times,he seems like a nice guy and helpful. I have built several double rifles using much of hi info though I do some things in what I feel are better ways, just my opinion. His book is very worth while and has lots of good info in it. My own double is a 450#2 N.E. built on a French action and way back I did a thread on building the rifle. It will be on my web site rather soon and will be able to be found at customguns.us

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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tarawa
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Re: Building a Double Rifle on a Shotgun Action/Ellis brown [Re: Judson]
      #98997 - 12/03/08 05:58 AM

I ordered my book today. I wish had known about this book years ago when I first got interested in double guns. Cost $100 plus shipping.

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Life is for Service

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