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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
80 meter Buckshot...
      #91708 - 16/12/07 09:25 AM

Patterned a couple buckshot loads at 80 yards today. In order to get an idea of what patterns a typical gun might produce, we chose a 28" bbl Ithaca 37 with Full choke tube installed. A rough silhouette of a reindeer was used, with a 12" "kill zone" circle inscribed. This target was used to demonstrate the "assistance" that might be provided by pellets hitting the body of a broadside deer, though obviously, the goal is the placement of pellets in the kill zone area to insure quick kills.

Started at 30 meters, firing a load of Fiocchi 2 3/4 inch 9 pellet 00, a load that performed exceptionally well in a test of 11 different rounds I fired some years ago, this in spite of its roll crimp and unbuffered, unplated shot. 7 of the 9 pellets landed in the kz with one in the belly area. Here are the results:



This established the general patterning of the gun, and also the POI. POI shifted downwards as distance increased, so a higher POA was used at the greater ranges.

Next, shots were fired at 50 meters. Shot to shot consistency was poor. For example, one shot produced hits in the antlers, what would have been the skin on the top of the back {grazing} and one shot in the dewlap of the "reindeer". A shot of Winchester 3" 00 buck with 15 pellets resulted in 1 pellet striking the butt, 3 the abdomen, 1 neck, 1 leg, 1 antlers and none in the kz. Predictability of pellets landing in the kz was impossible, though normally some pellets hit the black silhouette somewhere.

Then we stepped out to 80 meters. One shot of Winchester 3" 00 buck with 15 pellets was fired and one pellet landed in the kz. No other pellet hit the reindeer, and only one hit the target board itself. Another shot was fired, also of 15 pellet 00 buck. No pellet in that charge hit the reindeer at all.

Finally, we decided it would be interesting to see what some sort of terminal testing might reveal. Two 1 gallon milk jugs full of water were set in-line on a stump and placed where they would cover the kz.

Here is the setup:



Firing commenced with Fiocchi 9 pellet 00. It took seven shots to get one pellet to strike the kz. That pellet penetrated both gallon jugs and the paper target board. After the 7 shots were fired, 8 total hits were recorded on the black reindeer. One pellet struck the fir stump and penetrated one inch. Long ago, the military established something of a standard indicating that a bullet that penetrates one inch of pine is deadly. Our pellet penetrated one inch of fir at 80 meters, and the other penetrated 2 jugs full of water. Having said that, what cannot be seen in this report is the complete lack of hydrostatic shock at impact in the jugs. Where normal deer rifles in the .308 or .30-06 range will blow a jug to bits, the 00 pellet merely punched a hole. I suspect the wound channel of such a pellet would demonstrate very little temporary or permanent cavitation.

Here are the results:



Past testing indicates that buckshot patterns significantly differently from gun to gun. Some guns throw a very tight and zeroed buckshot pattern. Others don't. And different loads will pattern differently in the same gun. Your results may vary from the results shown here. Based on my experience with testing several different guns, I'd say the results of today's shoot were average. Some guns might do somewhat better, others worse. Bottom line, though, is that every gun must be patterned before long shots are taken. As stated in my article of some years ago, I suspect that few guns will perform well at 50 yards and based on this test and other tests I've shot in the past, I doubt there is a 12 gauge gun made that will toss a load of buckshot into a deer's kill zone at 80 meters every time. I suppose I could be wrong, and will open up the possibility of chance, but I've shot enough of this stuff to be skeptical.

One thing I am not skeptical about is the propensity for buckshot loads to wound game and this test yet again confirms my opinion. With the number of pellets being tossed, the possibility of a peripheral hit is great, even if a quickly killing shot does not strike the animal.

As stated over and over again, if a guy plans on using buckshot, he should pattern his gun, sight it properly and keep his shots close. In my opinion the guy that shoots a deer at 25 meters with 00 buckshot has no excuses for not killing cleanly. The guy who shoots at a deer at 80 meters with 00 buckshot has no excuses for taking such a shot at all.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3560
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91727 - 16/12/07 11:56 AM

Excellent work, 9Three...!

Are you auditioning for the next episode of 'Myth-Busters'?!

This definitely shows the limitations of buckshot, which simply must be known before venturing forth so-loaded. It also shows how effective it can be in the 30yd range.

Couple of points: now that the 80yd myth is busted, it would be useful to see the 25yd vs 30yd vs 35yd results, which is the range these things are most likely to be useful. Also, I believe full choke is a mistake with 00 or SG. Tighter groups are more likely with 1/2 choke, or 3/4 at most, going by past publications which I remember but cannot quote.

Again, well done. Thanks for going to the trouble. Hard data is preferable to opinion every time.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Marrakai]
      #91730 - 16/12/07 12:37 PM

Marrakai, thanks!!

Funny you mention Mythbusters. The Bhoyo and I said the same thing while we were at the range!

I should have mentioned...the Full choke was established in prior testing to give tightest patterns with this Fiocchi load, which, I might add, it "shouldn't", just as you say. What the Italians did with it I do not know. I've shot it in three guns now and two favor full, the other modified.

I have some Eley SSG and a variety of other buck, too, including some 20-year-old Swartklip SSSG I kept in my Beretta 424 double I kept next to the bed on the farm I lived on in Natal, so maybe there's more to come...

I like your idea about staging a test in 5 yard {or meter} increments. That sounds like a great idea.

On the tests I shot years ago, I had a gun that would place 4 pellets in an 8.5x11 inch sheet of typing paper consistently at 50 yards. I considered that gun good for fifty {Win 3", 00, 15 pellets}. But after 50 even it completely fell off, meaning the predictability of getting pellets in that arbitrary "kill zone" just didn't exist. The problem was, that one or two pellets would hit inside a deer-sized target, meaning the fellow that used it might have assumed he missed when in fact the critter was carry lead in a ham or gut.

Just like "neck shooters" around here who claim that a neck shot either kills or misses entirely...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91775 - 17/12/07 06:42 AM

thanks for doing this for us 9,3.

im not allowed to have buckshot in denmark, and i dont miss it. but i have no actual experince with buckshot so it is nice to see a test that shows that they cant perform magic.

regards

peter


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: peter]
      #91793 - 17/12/07 09:25 AM

Yes thank you for that. We cannot use them on live game either. I declined to comment before due to this as my experience was on fig 8 knockdown targets on a PR range. I was most unimpressed by their medium range performance at that time. Those targets would be about the same size as yours but vertical.

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Bramble]
      #91794 - 17/12/07 09:36 AM

Quote:

We cannot use them on live game either.




I did not know buckshot was this restricted in UK or the Continent.

Peter and Bramble: Do you fellows know when the ban on buckshot went into effect in your countries? Is it a recent law or has it been in effect for many years? Bramble, I have some eley SSG. I assume some is loaded in UK even if it is not legal for hunting use?

Can anyone comment on the laws regarding buckshot use in other European countries?

Thanks for your posts. Very interesting!

As for the vertical vs horizontal targets, one of the interesting things about shooting at 80 meters was watching the pellet strikes. Some struck the ground many feet in front of the target board or elsewhere. I really have no idea how big the "pattern" was as I'm sure I didn't see all strikes and just the ones I saw clearly indicated a very wide dispersion of the farthest pellets.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91836 - 17/12/07 08:48 PM

hi 9,3

in denmark it has been the law at least since 1987, other countrys i dont know about.

peter


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: peter]
      #91852 - 17/12/07 11:05 PM

Interesting tests, 9.3. Although I don't condone the use of buck for deer (there are just too many better rounds to use including flintlock rifles), I do ackmowledge that at close range, with a gun that will pattern them well, they may work OK.
; That said, how many once a year hunters do you know who can tell the difference between 30 and 50 yards. Deer look big and 'close enough' at most ranges. How many would pass up a nice buck at 80 yards and not 'take a crack' at him? Too, how many are willing to buy several or more differt brands and loads available to them, then take the time to go to the range and actually put up large sheets of paper to test for best patterns. I don't know any. I also don't know any duck hunters who pattern either. "Good enough" is what I hear when people by shotshells of any description. Most stores around here only have 1 brand and load of buck. Of course, it isn't popular here except for a few people for home protection, anyway - and that's illegal in Canada in itself unless the invading ciminal is armed with a firearm.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: DarylS]
      #91902 - 18/12/07 12:15 PM

SSG and LG which I also have was intended for use abroad I think. I do not know when the regulation regarding deer was enshrined in law but it it part of our "Deer act"

The only time one may use a shotgun on deer here is by the landowner to prevent "severe and immidate damage to crops" Then it is I believe not less than SSG sizes.


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Paatti
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Reged: 18/01/07
Posts: 301
Loc: Finland
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Bramble]
      #92387 - 22/12/07 07:17 AM

In Finnland buckshots are allowed but not for larger game than roedeer. I use to carry couple of 4 buck magnum on my cartridge belt just in case. When trackin a wounded animals I quite offen use shotgun or combi and quite often there is buckshot in the other chamber. When use combigun on wounded moose I never use buckshots.
When I have to use buckshots I prefer quite open chokes like imp. cylinder or modified because they do the tightest patterns on my guns.


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Boghossian
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Reged: 23/01/04
Posts: 93
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Paatti]
      #96697 - 14/02/08 06:40 AM

Bramble, I believe we are allowed to buy buckshot but it is illegal for shooting deer, so you would be free to shoot targets/vermin...

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bwananelson
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Reged: 08/10/07
Posts: 1195
Loc: DELTONA FLORIDA
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Boghossian]
      #96718 - 14/02/08 11:09 AM

buck shot should be outlawed it is weak,very unreliable,might work in a cannon.the use of dogs help you wound it with buck shot then let the dogs catch it and kill it for you,buck shot is a good home defence round when the perp is in the house.with todays fine slugs why would you shoot bs.worse yet people use #1#2#3and#4bs.maybe for those small rabbit sized african antelope but big game please.one good trait it keeps the buzzards fed..............

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 2289
Loc: GB
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: bwananelson]
      #96992 - 18/02/08 10:40 PM

Very interesting and thank you. I would like to see some targets from 5 yds out to 25 yds as well using 1/4 choke and SSG or is it O buck shot. That would finally settle my mind about the "is it good for following up leopards in thick cover ?" question which seems to provoke no end of argument. Maybe I'll buy 5 big pig heads and try it out myself one day. If I do I will post pics, best, Mike Bailey

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #96995 - 19/02/08 12:56 AM

Quote:

Very interesting and thank you. I would like to see some targets from 5 yds out to 25 yds as well using 1/4 choke and SSG or is it O buck shot. That would finally settle my mind about the "is it good for following up leopards in thick cover ?" question which seems to provoke no end of argument. Maybe I'll buy 5 big pig heads and try it out myself one day. If I do I will post pics, best, Mike Bailey




I have no experience following up leopard, but the issue brought up by some is that up close {your 5 yards mentioned for example} the shot charge represents one big bullet. Thus, it offers no advantage over a rifle. Then, if a shot presents itself at ranges over 25 yards, the pattern opens up enough and the pellets have such poor ballistic properties that once again you are better off with a rifle.

From about 5 to 25 yards the shotgun with a good load of buckshot in a well-choked gun offers decent performance but not so much of an advantage that a poorly placed shot will be "made up for by the swarm of pellets" as might be stated in a crime novels. Giving up the longer range possibilities negates even the decent performance of the 5-25 yard shot for some, according to what I have read. I guess I see their point. If you see Spots for a fleeting moment sitting in some brush at 50 yards and you only have time for a snap shot before he hobbles off and thus have no time to take over a rifle from Ilunga, that shotgun is going to be a conundrum. What would have been a done deal now requires more tracking.

By the wa, in my experience you have to test each load with several chokes in each gun to figure out which produces the best pattern. Choke tubes are a big help in a single barrel gun for this reason. some gun/load combinations like one choke with a given load, some another.

Remember, I have no experience with leopard, but I do patterning buckshot. I wonder what an experienced fellow might think who was handed a Marlin .336 in .375 Winchester for following up leopard. Very light, very handy and from bayonet distance to 50 yards and more a good killer, too, bulleted right, that is.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26869
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97002 - 19/02/08 02:22 AM

I recall all the old literature about following at biting distances than 000 or SG buck shot ie: .36 cal balls. Brass shells were used - these writings were taking place in the 50's I assume. Nowadays the 000 shot sold for reloading by Hornady is .35 cal, which probably makes no difference. 00 and SSG is .32 cal., again, at 5 feet, probably makes no difference. I do know at 5 feet, they'll penetrate a black bear's skull quite well, but not at 20 yards.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5520
Loc: United States
Re: 80 meter Buckshot... [Re: DarylS]
      #97004 - 19/02/08 03:06 AM

Years ago we had an old house here on the ranch. Before we tore it down, I wandered around the inside wearing my Civil Defense helmet and armed with a bagfull of buck & birdshot and my Ithaca pumpgun. I shot from this angle and that, thru the walls, floors, doors etc.

A charge of 00 would go through the drywall ceiling, Tamarack/Western Larch flooring of the upstairs room, stick in the roof planks but not go through the metal roofing. It would go through an inside wall and the next room {unless being stopped when hitting a stud}, but stop in the outside wall on the other side, except...

Some individual pellets would do interesting things. Maybe they rode the wake of others before them, I don't know, but sometimes a pellet would penetrate when it didn't make sense for it to do so.

I reckon I lost a little hearing but gained a little appreciation for the use of buckshot indoors.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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