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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game
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sprayerboy
.224 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 11
Loc: northwest Kansas
New to site
      #9167 - 16/02/04 02:26 PM

I am new to this site and new to african hunting. I was at a outdoor show in North Platte NE this weekend and I ended up putting $1000 down on a hunt with Witklip Safaris out of south africa. I booked 10 days in early august for plains game but I want to focus on leopard. I am curios what it costs to shoot a lion with other outfitters. I went to their web site and nothing comes up. Starting to wonder if I jumped the gun. Not that 1000 dollars matter that much but I am curious to know if they have a good reputation. anybody with specific info on my outfitters can pm me. I could use any advise anyone has to give. The closest gun I have to african standards is my ruger m77 in 338 win mag. I am sure it will work on leopard but I am curious as to whether I need something bigger just in case.

--------------------
"one who has many pot lickers"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9171 - 16/02/04 04:30 PM

Sprayerboy,

Welcome to the forum, I know you'll enjoy it.

I'm not casting aspertions on your outfitter as I don't even know them, but 10 days is a very short time for a leopard hunt and in RSA a VERY large percentage of leopard hunts (one way or another) are cons.

RSA Leopards have been hunted to hell & gone for years and are very switched on indeed. RSA Leopard licences can easily be moved from one client to another, hence the same licence can be sold many times over and bring multiple profits to the unscrupulous outfitter..... it's actually in the interest of the outfitter if the client doesn't get his Leopard as if he fails the licence can be resold again....and again.....and again......and again!

Anyone who books a hunt in RSA for Mr Spots should show extreme caution.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (17/02/04 07:49 AM)

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Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: New to site [Re: shakari]
      #9183 - 16/02/04 10:11 PM

Hi Sprayerboy,

Welcome to NE.com
Hope you enjoy it here with us.All decent and good fellas here and we welcome fellow hunters.

Me and Shakari are both from South-Africa and I tend to agree with him.Where will this safari of yours take place??

You are gonna spend 7 of your 10 day safari for maybe getting a leopard.Change it to at least 14days if you can.Speak to Shakari for information and help.He is a old hand in the safari busyness.

Good luck man and I hope you are happy here with us.
Cheers


--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: New to site [Re: Bigfive]
      #9209 - 17/02/04 04:11 AM

Sprayerboy, I forgot to mention that you should be even more cautious of Lion hunts in RSA as an even bigger percentage of these are canned or very close to it..... certainly not free ranging and fair chase hunting.

There's no such thing as a cheap Lion hunt unless there's something wrong with it.

South Africa is a great country for hunting, but I'm sure that the vast majority of experienced African hunters will agree with me when I say that it's only at it's best for plains game hunting.....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mikeh416Rigby
.450 member


Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9223 - 17/02/04 07:30 AM

Welcome. If you are from the U.S. be careful about hunting Leopard in RSA. I've had quite a few P.H.s tell me that it's getting difficult to get the Cities permits. I personally know of one P.H. whose hunter took a Leopard in RSA, couldn't get the Cities permit, and smuggled the cat into Botswana and got a permit from there. I wouldn't want to risk it.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9226 - 17/02/04 07:58 AM

WELCOME!!!

dang, lots of nebraskans floating around! you can call me if you want to talk further, PM or email me for my 800 number.

as for gun choice, if you can shoot that 338, it will get you to everything short of lion, buff, jumbo, rhino and hippo. just be sure you can actually shoot it...

4-6" groups off-hand would be VERY desirable.

what contact information was given you, maybe one of us can help you find your outfitter!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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sprayerboy
.224 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 11
Loc: northwest Kansas
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9243 - 17/02/04 01:14 PM

I should have made it clear I am NOT from Nebraska LOL. Unfortunately my wife is. I live in northwest KS I was just taking some game to my taxidermist in North Platte. The hunt itself will cost 300 per day and I could stay for for as long as I want. To be honest if I didnt get at least a shot at a leopard I would probably stay until I did! I just estimated 10 days to give myself time to get back to the august bear hunt in New Mexico. The trophy fee on a leopard is 5000 buff is 15000 male lion is 20000. I went on a interior alaska grizzly/black bear hunt in october that cost 5700 no refund for not even spotting a lone grizz. I figured that I got what I paid for and 5000 trophy fee for a leopard was probably the real thing. As for the 338 I have seen what it will do to a black bear and it is probably too strong. Can you imagine how it would feel if we saw a record buff and I lost it because all I had was a 25-06. go K-STATE

--------------------
"one who has many pot lickers"

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9244 - 17/02/04 01:34 PM

The animals and the prices are way out of line. As stated before Leopard is on a Quota from RSA for entry into the US. The quota is very low in proportion to the amount of Leopards taken. All sorts of finagling goes on to get permits after the fact. If you don't have one before you go, and you should, consider it big question mark.

Lion in RSA are mostly hunted behind High Fence and are put and take by the owners. No scoring group will recognize an RSA Lion because of the questionable nature of most of the hunting.

Buffalo are way too much. You can get a two buff hunt in Tanz. for $9000 including trophy fee.

For the $50000 you can easily get a 21 day hunt in Zim or Tanz. where Elephant would also be included. And you would actually get the animals and be legally entitled to import them.

RSA is a great place for Plains game if you use an outfitter who has large blocks of property to hunt. It is not that expensive.

I think you need to do more research on this. Let us know what is going on and we can point you in the right direction. Ray Atkinson is tuned into all this as he is a booking agent. Despite his choice of work he is honest with his information.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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sprayerboy
.224 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 11
Loc: northwest Kansas
Re: New to site [Re: mickey]
      #9246 - 17/02/04 02:30 PM

the ph's name is Ewald Ras out of Thabazimbi. He wanted me to fax a copy of my passport as soon as possible so that he could apply for the cites permit. Knowing that the leopard was what I wanted to focus on. I am not looking for buff lion jumbos hippo or rhinos and honestly I really dont care about the plains game. What type of price can I get a leopard in another country and how many problems will I see with the cites and importing to usa. I would rather camp in the bush as compared to staying in a fancy lodge. And I am only 26 and in good shape so I would love some spot and stalk compared to sitting in a blind the whole time. Like I said before I am not against jumping ship on this if it is not what I want. Do you feel that some of the leopards have been brought into the high fence areas and what key questions should I ask him about this to give me an idea how they do it?

--------------------
"one who has many pot lickers"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9247 - 17/02/04 02:54 PM

I would suggest that you look at success rate rather than price alone. RSA Leopard hunting probably averages around 40% success. Places such as Mozambique, Tanzania & Zim would be at least twice that....... don't just believe the PH/outfitter as they'll tell you what you want to hear...ask for and check references and ask the referees to send you photographs.

The only country you might have problems getting a US import licence for is Mozambique, but I'm sure you're F&WS guys would advise you on that.

The daily rate of US$300 per day also looks a little suspicious to me. It's on the cheap side for plains game hunting, let alone a Leopard hunt.....but it could be that he's hoping to make the money up on the bait animals.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9248 - 17/02/04 03:05 PM

There are a lot of Leopard in the Northern Transvaal. Make sure you have the permit before you go. Don't accept excuses. Spot and stalk on Leapard is really tough, virtually impossible. The country is brushy and Leopards are very secretive.

Don't eliminate animals before you go. It becomes a different story when you are over there. Keep in mind that there as many registered PHs in some areas of the RSA as there are visiting hunters. Get at least 5 references.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9263 - 17/02/04 05:44 PM

Boy, this one is a tough call. I would get references with phone numbers.

I hope the outfitter didn't say you could spot and stalk a leopard. That isn't going to happen. I've only seen 2 or 3 brief glimpses of leopards that were not on bait.

Not that there is anything "wrong" with going for the Big 4 the first time around, I would tone it down and get your feet wet the first time.

Since you seem to have lots of money and time, I would keep shopping. Ask Steve and Ray what they have as comparable hunts. Not that I am recommending picking their brains and then going with someone else, but a brief discussion will help to find out whether your outfitter is reasonably priced.

If you cannot get bunches of references, I think I'd bail out.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.

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Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: New to site [Re: Will]
      #9265 - 17/02/04 06:37 PM

This is a very difficult call.I can assure you that very little leopard is put on properties by any land owner or PH.Leopard are free roaming in South Africa and you'll get them anywhere.Leopard were put down in Pretoria,one of the biggest citys in RSA.They are everywhere.We are limited to space here in RSA because of large agricultural activity and that is why basically all hunting grounds is fenced.I promise you that there is nothing more difficult to hunting free ranging plains game than hunting fenced game.Ask Nitro about his Hellbeasts.There is also very little fences that will keep leopard in or out.Every year the is leopard attacks in the Kruger Park Camps behind electrified fences.
Walk and stalk is out for leopard hunting in South-Africa and that is because of the bush and hunting conditions.It is not as open as east africa.The leopard has bigger competition from man to live on the same peace of land so they tend to be more secrative than in places where virtually no people ever come.Don't let any PH anywhere in Africa tell you they don't hunt leopard on bait because it happens all over not just in South-Africa.Zambia and Tanzania Buffs are shot to pt out for lion Same principal.A fellow PH of mine specialize in Leopard hunts.Again I can refer to Nitro on this.We also picked up some leopard track while hunting there.He operates also in the Northern Province (Limpopo) of RSA.
Lots of people all over the world is fast to comment on ethical hunting of Leopard.Ask them how ethical their leopard hunt was or rather ask them what do they really know about leopard hunting.Does 5 leopard hunts make you the expert??????????
U$300 is low for dangerous game and the rest of that prices for the big stuff is high.But in RSA we got an exchange rate problem wich force a lot of guys to put up their prices.Also breeding TB free buffalo in RSA has become an enormous busyness here.Maybe that is the reason for his high prices.Maybe he only has acces to clean buffs...

Good luck in any way and I really wish you a good safari in RSA.Great place to live in and even a better place to hunt...

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39889
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: New to site [Re: Bigfive]
      #9281 - 17/02/04 10:39 PM

I wonder is there some confusion on "canned" lions in South Africa vs "canned" leopards?

There have been many stories of lions shot in too small fenced paddocks but I have never heard the same of leopards.

Are there captive leopard breeding programmes for hunting on the scale of lions?

I would think leopards are crafty enough to negotiate the average game fence, going under, over or through, and that is my understanding. Not many large scale game fences would hold them.

Dantri is right in that the area we hunted in 2002 is supposed to be good for leopard and the local PH has access to areas near previously unhunted country. He certainly said he had been going through the donkeys he used as bait.

It adds to a plains game safari to come across leopard tracks and both my plains game hunts we have come across fresh or recent tracks. Maybe not as good as coming across a live leopard in daylight though.

Some people also make ridiculous statements about hunting fenced properties. Along the lines of shooting game pressed up against fences . My experience with hartebeest with BigFive was we hunted the hartebeest very hard for four or five days. One time we tracked them many kilometres across the property and yes they were nearing the far boundary. This last paddock (ie divided by tracks from other "paddocks" had the thickest thorn of any and after a couple hundred metres the tracker lost the tracks or gave up.

Heading back guess what tracks we cut? The hartebeest. They had circled around in front of us and were headed back to their home territory. So much for cornering game against a fence .

In the end we missed out on "Hellbeasts" (named by me for their demonic horns and red coats and torture they put us there). They beat us.

If anything the game on this property was more skittish and hard to hunt than the free range game in Zimbabwe a week later.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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shakari
.400 member


Reged: 09/02/03
Posts: 1107
Loc: South Africa
Re: New to site [Re: NitroX]
      #9293 - 18/02/04 04:20 AM

It's not that Leopards are often canned the same way as Lions, in fact it's pretty rare. It's the unscrupulous practices that happen.....such as spoiling the baits when the client isn't around, having a frozen Leopard for the client to shoot which then "escapes wounded" and is lost, (but you gotta pay the trophy fee) or there's the silent dog whistle trick..... the list goes on & on.......Every time a client books the hunt and fails means that the licence can be resold again and again.

Then you have to add on the factor that these cats have been some of the most heavily targeted in Africa for the last 200 years or so and have consequently got extremely well educated and you end up with a low success rate at best and being tucked up at worst.

I'd say that fair Leopard hunts in RSA are probably no more than around 40% successful and most wilderness areas are probably at least twice that successful...... hell, I know of one tree in the Selous that has delivered 8 Leopards over the last 2 years.


--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9310 - 18/02/04 06:22 AM

In reply to:

go K-STATE



THIS MEANS WAR!!!!

anyway.. close enough man...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1408
Loc: United States
Re: New to site [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #9318 - 18/02/04 06:59 AM

What do they call you guys from Nebraska...? Corney Hucksters...something like that

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: New to site [Re: luv2safari]
      #9325 - 18/02/04 08:02 AM

bugeaters.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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sprayerboy
.224 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 11
Loc: northwest Kansas
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9378 - 18/02/04 01:49 PM

I just love giving you corn holskers a hard time lol. I didnt even go to K-State but just saying that riles you guys up. All of my inlaws are husker fans and family get togthers would be awful tough to handle. 50 or 60 huskers all getting worked up over my comments makes me smile.

--------------------
"one who has many pot lickers"

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sprayerboy
.224 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 11
Loc: northwest Kansas
Re: New to site [Re: sprayerboy]
      #9379 - 18/02/04 01:52 PM

dasmafia no hard feeling? what do you do in lincoln? do you do any hunting in western NE?

--------------------
"one who has many pot lickers"

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