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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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jaz
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Loc: Northeast US
Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #91777 - 17/12/07 06:58 AM

Daryl
The question is "Is it a ball and shot gun" The term "Ball and Shot" refers to those guns which replicate a shotgun but can also shoot a bullet. They are basically the same weight as a normal shotgun and therin lies the difference. These guns were made between the mid 1880's and 1920, with some exceptions. I have a Westley Richards "Ball Gun" 10 bore, 14 lbs, express sights, which can not be considered a Ball and Shot Gun. It may be referred to as a Ball Gun or a Jungle gun, as it is not rifled.
I guess it is the terminology which can be misleading.

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degoins
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #91856 - 18/12/07 12:20 AM

Mehul and Daryl,
thanks for the info.

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: degoins]
      #91872 - 18/12/07 03:31 AM

YOu're right, Jaz- technically, the ball and shot guns were lighter. Wil's 5 bore was meant for ball, but would, of course, handle shot as would any double smoothbore with sights, regardless of weight. To have been built specifically for ball and shot, it would have been lighter than specific ball guns. Due to having sights, it is obvious it is meant for ball. I do believe the ball and shot guns were somewhat heavier than normal English shotguns, which would run in the 7 to 8 pound bracket for 12. I don't think the weights grew too much until smokeless powders came about in 90's. Then, the heavy 12 bore load increased to 1-1/4 ounce and weights ran 8 to even 9 pounds, I believe. 'course, I might be thinking of something else.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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jaz
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #91904 - 18/12/07 12:46 PM

Again, two bore rifles I had were, 1, a 12 bore H&H, 6-7 dram gun, weight 12.8 lbs and a 6 dram Manton 12, 12.6 lbs, both capable of shooting elephants. Very powerful, only to be displaced by the nitro guns starting in the 1900's. I once shot a deer with the 12 Holland through the chest out through the rear hip, shattered the bones and inbedded itself 3" into a hickory tree. Pretty powerful stuff.

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: jaz]
      #91984 - 19/12/07 02:10 AM

I worked up to 7 drams of 2F in my double 12. It was a bit light at 7.5 to 8 pounds and almost spun me around each shot, but was quite accurate to 100 yards with .685" round balls at 466gr. in wheelweights. Hitting a 12" steel plate offhand, 2 rights, 2 lefts was not much of a trick. The same ballitics can be achieved easily, with low recoil and superb accuracy, without the excessive barrel heating that happens with black powder. This is for modern guns only, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #92105 - 20/12/07 05:25 AM

In AFRICAN RIFLES AND CARTRIDGES, John Taylor devotes pp 90-92 to discussion of the JG's. Drawings of the ammo, too.

Rifled choke tubes used to be {still are??} available for many shotguns. I am still somewhat skeptical as to what 2 inches of rifling would do for accuracy, but maybe if ammo was properly made some improvement would be possible.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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jaz
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92157 - 20/12/07 01:41 PM

The 2" of rifling is the legendary Fosberry patent first available as a Paradox from H&H. The patent ran out and the others copied it. Westley Richards perfected iy with the Super magnum Explora. Ross Seyfried shot an elk two years ago at 250 yards!!! I believe that says it all.

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9.3x57
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: jaz]
      #92158 - 20/12/07 01:44 PM

Quote:

The 2" of rifling is the legendary Fosberry patent first available as a Paradox from H&H. The patent ran out and the others copied it. Westley Richards perfected iy with the Super magnum Explora. Ross Seyfried shot an elk two years ago at 250 yards!!! I believe that says it all.



Actually, it only says a little...!

What was the load used?

Also, do you know if the rifling type is similar to the various {or any of the} screw-in tubes sold?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92171 - 20/12/07 03:04 PM

I went & got 5 rounds of S&B brenneke slugs in 65mm case & 5 rounds of Winchester 70mm case hollow point 1oz slugs to try in my Webley & Scott shotgun. The gun has been messed with - forcing cones & chokes opened out & rib resoldered. If it shoots the slugs ok, I am planning to have express sights installed and use it on goats & targets. This will be my practice DR until I can afford to buy & shoot one.

Any help on this project would be appreciated as I am starting with zero experience on slug guns & DRs.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Nakihunter]
      #92233 - 21/12/07 01:50 AM

Naki--- Good luck! It is a noble project.

I have a 12 gauge double barrel slugger with express sites, monte carlo stock, etc. And it shoots those brenneke black magics into clover leafs at 50 yards.

The key as you stated above is to first see how it shoots slugs without putting a bunch of money into it.

I find shooting at 25 yards first is the best way to see how things migt work out... trying to shoot a group at 50 yards with a bead is asking too much.

Also, I recommend NOT bench shooting any double but rather shoot it with your forehand on the forearm and just support your arm like how they regulate double rifles... If a double is locked down as it might be for "bench shooting a bolt gun", for example, the double gun will shoot to very different points as compared to being locked down in a typical becnh shooting scenario. Hence bench shhotng any doubel in my opinion dopes not tell you antything and actually gives you false results, in my opinion.

So shoot your double shot gun with slugs at 25 yards using your forerm resting or braced on a bench or support to see how well it will shoot those slugs... then let us know. Probably under a different (and NEW) thread as this is supposed to be a Jungle Gun thread.

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #92235 - 21/12/07 02:01 AM

9.3x57- the rifled chokes on the Paradox doubles were very deep indeed. I have some pictures of muzzles somewhere. The depth is needed to start spinning, a heavy projectile that is travelling in the 1,300fps to 1,500fps range already. A ratchet type of rilfing was also used, deepest at the bottom of the side of the groove that 'took' the most stress of spinning the ball(bullet), ie: right hand twist, left corner deepest.
: I think a normal full choke with a 1" to 2" end choke, if rifled should work fairly well. That would give .020" depth of rilfing each side.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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gatsby
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #92241 - 21/12/07 03:09 AM



Early Holland choke rifling.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #92267 - 21/12/07 09:02 AM

Jeeez, those are deep crevices!

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: gatsby]
      #92275 - 21/12/07 10:03 AM

Gatsby- that's exactly the picture I was thinking of. TKS for posting it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #92296 - 21/12/07 12:19 PM

Gatsby, thanks!

I want to send that pic to Marlin and then see if they keep calling their Ballard stuff "deep cut" rifling...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: 9.3x57]
      #92453 - 23/12/07 06:18 AM

The true JUNGLE GUNS were always large bore, and had relatively short barrels. I had an Army&Navy 577 Snider with 22" barrels, it was a hammer gun with fully rifled barrels. It had back action side lock exposed hammer locks, with a Jones under lever action. These were designed for tiger hunting from the back of an elephant, or from a machan built high in a tree, for the drivers to push the cats to the machans. Accuracy was unimportant past 50 yds, and usually were used a off the muzzle shooting! Lighter chamberings were use from machans, than on foot, or from Hawdah, because the tigers tended to try to get in these with you, so the short BIG bores for Howdah!

My rifle was certainly made for Tiger shooting, because it had tigers engraved all over it. It came from India in WW II by my father-in-law. He thought it was a slug shotgun, till he got it home, and found no shotgun shells would fit it. This rifle had a wear pattern around the barrels, and action that indicated it had been placed in a loop in a Howdah much the same as Howdah pistols were. I would love to hear the tales that old rifle could spin! That rifle worked quite well on baited black bear and moose, as well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Sarg
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #92459 - 23/12/07 08:52 AM

Why did you not keep such a intersting & romantic rifle ,with famliy ties ?

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Sarg]
      #92522 - 24/12/07 06:39 AM

My father-in-law had a brother who wanted it when my F-I-L died, so I traded it to him for two other rifles, and a shotgun. I still shoot it once in a while, and he has no sons, so I'll get it back when he goes. He's 92 yrs old, so maybe I'll still be around, as I'm YOUNG, only 71 yrs old.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #92523 - 24/12/07 06:47 AM

Mac- what a great bush gun! - 85 to 100gr. black (to get it to regulate) and a 480 to 580gr. bullet of descent size.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #92568 - 24/12/07 11:20 PM

Hi all,

Daryl and Sarg are right,

The only jungle gun by name I know of was made by 'Lyon and Lyon' who of course had it made for them by whoever(Richards?) and in large quantities, saw several for sale all marked 'jungle gun'

Merry Christmas!

Ben

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: empirevr]
      #93292 - 03/01/08 08:29 AM

Hey Naki---

Any progress or reports or the shooting of your double barrel slug gun(aka smooth bore pore boy Jungle Gun)???

I have been out with mine and missed a running shot at a fox at 50 yards. Heavy cover, steep terrain. Shooting down. The fox only presented me with one opportunity and it was moving pretty fast. I do need to work on my "snap shots".

But I do like this double with express sites.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #93314 - 03/01/08 01:13 PM

Hey Yogi

I took the Webly out to the paddock at the back & tried a couple of loads - standing off hand.



I found the S&B Brenneke easy to shoot. The Winchester 1 oz slug had more recoil. I need to keep trying out a few groups & slowly extend to 50 meters.

I'll keep you posted.

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Nakihunter]
      #93358 - 04/01/08 02:31 AM

That is a very promising group!!! And with a front bead and NOT express sights. I would say you mots likely have your double barrel slug gun there. You are on your way. Congrats!

And as you probably figured you want a rear express sight that you can adjust LEFT/RIGHT as well as UP and DOWN. It makes all the difference.

Also, I found the same as far as recoil... the Brenneke's were not bad at all, but those Winchesters serve up a hard sharp kick.

I really enjoy when people actually TRY out their double barrel shotguns with slugs... Most times the results are the gun is definitely a shooter at 20-25 yards and often even at 50+... And off-hand!!!! which is how most shots will be made in the field. Anxious to hear more on this double of yours and the progress to make it a double barrel slugger with TWO sights!

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DarylS
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: Yogi000]
      #93365 - 04/01/08 03:16 AM

Barrels with ribs make for easy placement of rear sights.
: I simply dovetailed mine in. I've cut a lot of sight dovetails in muzzleloading barrels so it's no trick for me, but for someone who has never done one, I'd get a 'smith' to do it for you. You don't want to 'scratch' those tubes with the hacksaw or files. The front shotgun 'bead' may or may not be too low, depending on where the gun shoots. It can be filed on the sides to narrow it a bit, not much is needed, if at all.
: I picked up a couple boxes of WW slugs a couple years ago and only tried 2 from the pump gun. I didn't have any balls loaded up and was going to camp. They were the higher velocity ones, 1,700fps, but only 1 ounce. The 2 shots I tried, made a single hole at 25 yards, some 4" over my bead, so I left the shotgun at home. 4" over is too high and there was no time to 'adjust' things(higher front sight). In the dark on a facing bear it's difficult to judge holding 4" lower than where you want the ball to hit. Time is a factor. When there isn't any for shot placement adjustment, bad things can happen.
; Naki - a bit of windage adjustment and bingo on the Brenn's. They're just a bit wider than distance between the muzzles. That could show minor spreading or normal group size - Cool! More shooting will show what's going on. I find it interesting the WW made larger holes than the Brennekes. I'd have thought the Brenn's would have made larger holes with their wad-cutter-type ogives.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
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Re: Jungle Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #93372 - 04/01/08 04:51 AM

Agreed. It seems odd the Brenneke's were so diminutive compared to the 1 ouncer winnies. Yet i am not sure I can see both Win slug hits really well.

I can't wait to try out some more home loaded round balls in mine!!!

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