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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: JPK]
      #91148 - 10/12/07 02:37 PM

Quote:


And this is so true until you are taliking about big dangerous game and ranges under 50yds, even really under 25yds. Here you need all the view and perspective you can get. That big open V works great, doesn't hide or obscure anything and isn't even a heartbeat slower.

JPk




The GR is invisible to the naked eye. Cannot be seen. All that can be seen is the front sight. For some reason the technicalities of which are unknown to me, the eye centers the GR, even tho you cannot see it. As Finn went on to say, all you do is place the front sight on the target and break the trigger.

In fact, since the wide V is, technically, between the eye and the target and it extends laterally on either side of the front sight, it obscures more than the GR.

RIPP is right, the GR rear is superior precisely because it is invisible.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
Loc: Chevy Chase, MD
Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91151 - 10/12/07 03:00 PM

Hey, I use one, and it is "invisible" to the eye. But it makes whatever is behind it invisible too. Since you shoot up at eles, and they stand taller than we do it ends up obscuring your view or perspective. This is trouble in with eles, and not with the one you are killing.

If you doubt me, go grab one of your rifles with a good open apperature and try it. You will find, as you state, that the thin wide apperature is "invisible." You will also find thaat it obturates, or obscures, a good portion of your total view, or perspective, to the sides and above. For a righty, especially to the right and above.

This is why the open V express sight is prefered - by me at least - for dangerous game.

Edited to say that the closer to the eye the better fot the open apperature, or ghost ring, but the obturation occurs nonetheless.

JPK


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: JPK]
      #91154 - 10/12/07 03:22 PM

JPK: I agree that some peeps do block a substantial amount of view. One that doesn't is the old Swedish jaktdiopter. I have one on a Husqvarna Model 46 and it works well for me.

I wonder if the following two fellows were Cork Poppers?

Old John Buhmiller, the barrel-maker turned elephant hunter favored the wide V rear {he must have been sober most of the time} mated with {oops, here comes the bottle...} a thick wide BLADE up front which according to Bob Bell in Gun Digest, 54th Edition, he kept painted white. Mentioned elsewhere, I can vouch for this painting business myself, though due to conditions here, often black serves best. Buhmiller favored this combination even over a large peep.

And some may remember the late Harold Johnson, the originator of the .450 Alaskan. Possibly he grabbed the whole jug, as during his years in Alaska for bear hunting and on the custom guns he made, he favored the SOURDOUGH front mated with an adjustable peep rear with the threaded aperture insert removed. Cited in Handloader August 1999.

Two more guys I would have liked to have in the discussion here and I'd have been happy to provide the bottle.

And then there is Craig Boddington. He has stated in print he likes the V/Bead for an open sight on big critters but finds the peep faster and more precise. I wonder if he is a cork popper? Maybe just sometimes...

So, back to the actual topic for a moment.

If I remember correctly, you actually asked for target types used for zeroing. I assume that means paper. At least it does for me. Not sure for others:

Here are several I find useful.

The large target is the Norwegian hunting test target. ErikD will be familiar with this one. The smaller ones are of my own design, using the principles of the norsk target.

Use whatever to set your sights, a small dot on a large white background, a round bull, an anchor-type or whatever. I frequently use a small 1" square of masking tape placed on the center of the Facing Deer target pictured below.

Once sights are set, the use of the silhouettes establish exactly how you use them on asymmetrical targets {not many round bulls in the field}. I submit that if a fellow has to go through some complicated holding or gymnastication to use a set of sights he's better off with different type, but to each his own. I place the top edge of the front sight where I want the bullet to go and shoot.

The Facing Deer is a symmetrical target, and very easy to hold on. The Broadside Coyote is less so, and ditto the Broadside Cow Elk. We shoot all of them at various ranges from field positions after zeroing, no bench allowed, but the point is that the targets have lightly scratched kill zones that cannot be seen with the naked eye when shooting. The targets do not lie. the shots are either in or out. I have used them to teach limits of shooting ability and they seem to be a bit of a revelation for some.

I consider an 8 inch circle to be a conservative diameter of a deer kill zone, and six inches ditto for the coyote. If a fellow cannot on-command place 5 shots inside the 8 inch kill zone on the "Elk" {with no shots outside the invisible circle} at a given range, then he shouldn't be shooting at a deer at that range in the field. In practice, I will take any shot given on a coyote or dog {even a mere wound is A OK by me} but the Coyote target is a good one for practice anyway, particularly for pistol when approaching a trapped yote that might "erupt" and break away when seeing the trapper.

The targets are instructive. Granted, small varmints obviously demand a level of precision far beyond 8 inches at 100 meters but for deer we find these targets very helpful when used at all ranges. I have seen many otherwise confident shooters throw wide shots on the targets, followed by excuses. As I tell my kids, a target, paper or critter, doesn't lie. You can either hit it, or you can't. I confess, part of the reason I quit using beads was that I got unexplainable flyers on these types of targets at ranges beyond 50 meters.

Hopefully they may be of some use to you.

Here they are:



The Coyote with the scratch tool for scribing the circles:





--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: DarylS]
      #91182 - 11/12/07 02:59 AM

Quote:

.400 NE has brought up some points I guess I should have made clear in my earlier posts. My beads measure 1/16" or a bit finer on my hunting rifles. They are round only in profile, with a flat face, angled slightly, which catches light across it's entire face, not on the sides. They have a sharp edge all the way around. If there's enough light to see open sights, the front sight gleams round from the avilable light. It is quite evident that good scopes allow shooting later and earlier than do irons, but then, this is about iron sights. At rendezvous, guys with silver blades are the ones complaining of having point of impact shifts dependent on the angle of the sun, and asking if anyone has a felt pen handy.
: To have a rifle sighted for a 6 o'clock hold - is that on a 6" bull, 8" or whatever. To hold a 1/16" bead at 6 o'clock, the centre of that bead is going to be several inches below the bottom of the bull, maybe 3" or maybe 4", depending on how much light you have to see. To be sure of a 6 o'clock hold, one must see about 1" of light between the bead and the bull, otherwise the bead creeps up into the bull. For a centre-bull hit to happen, the bullet will be striking 1/2 the diameter of the bull above the 'light' which is above the bead. That puts it at least 6" to 8" above the centre of the bead. On a running shot, or quick shot at an animal at 100 yards, be it a deer or similar sized animal, the bullet is already striking 6" to 8" high, which means a miss over the centre of a deer having a 12" kill zone. Put the deer or pig whatever out at 150 yards, with a bit of a drop inbetween the hunter and game, and the bullet is now 10" or more abouve the bead and several above the animal. Where do you hold, as instinct tells you to put the bead on the animal. Only by luck will it be hit, therefore having the centre of the bead being point of impact only makes sense. the small bead doesn't cover all the target one might think. Huge beads put on model 94 wincheters need to be replaced. With a file and a bit of skill, one can change their mickey-mouse rear U notch into a wide shallow V and replace the front sight with a small ivory bead. Now, you have a hunting sight that works close in, or for that 200 yard shot across the meadow or 'park' as guys south of the border are wont to call them. I have just such sights on my 1978 XTR Big Bore 94 .375. That rifle, with those sights will put 3 fst conseutive shots into 1-1/2" at 100 meters. Good enough for me, and for the 2 moose I shot with it back in the early 80's. Both were 95 to 100 meters away, and both shots were snap shots, fired fast, as only these sights will allow. I tried a Williams Aperature and quickly took it off, puttin the V back on.
; Raising one notch on the elevator gives me a 200 meter zero. It's fast, and repeatable. could it be better - not likely - but I'm open to suggestions.




Excellent analysis and post. Spot on.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91188 - 11/12/07 03:45 AM

Quote:

Excellent analysis and post. Spot on.




Hurrah, finally somebody he agrees with!

Add two more to the list of Cork Poppers;

* Jack O'Connor {The Hunting Rifle,1970} p. 247 "peep with a large aperture". But he was a scope-first man like Finn, so I'm guessing he never left the bottle alone.

* Elmer Keith {March 1962 Gun Notes}, "I much prefer the Sourdough-type blade, such as the Redfield, to all other types for game or target shooting". Now I do know for a fact that Elmer took a sip every now and then, as he mentioned it in print once.

This list of Cork Poppers keeps growing. Man, the party is gonna' be hoppin and I better head out to buy some more booze!

My goodness, all these fellows that don't know nothing at all...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Rustyzipper
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Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 83
Loc: North of the Zambezi, in Miser...
Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91226 - 11/12/07 10:03 AM

I'm lurking as usual. And it looks like you are right 9three. Don't know nothing, means they know something. Double negative is still positive??? I enjoyed this data from different researchers and shooters. I had the feeling from my limited shooting that the Ghost ring and a flat topped front is my personal favorite. My squirrel gun, an old Golden 39A has a receiver peep and a front bead filed to shape. Flat. That is the gun from which I shoot the most ammo each year. My favorite big bore, a Savage .458 Win Mag had an Ashley peep and Brockman's flat top front post with brass inlay. Wish I hadn't sold it. Good shootin' boys and girls. And God Bless. Rustyzipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91230 - 11/12/07 11:40 AM

9.3 - You can add John Whooters to that list as well. He stated in a G&A atricle, that the English Express Sights were only for shooting very large animals out to 25 yards ans were useless past that. I wonder what he thought all the other leaves were for? Up until that time, I hadn't used them but knew they were better than what he said. I chalked what he said up to someone writing about somthing he didn't know anything about for the $$ per word. I had absolutely no respect for anything that man after he said that and never read anything more he wrote. That was the 'last' straw for Whooters.
: On the other hand, I thought a lot of Old Elmer though, treasure the phone conversations we had and our written correspondence and have tried his suggestions on sights. I-too like the sourdough, but I prefer the bead and wide V. Sights are a very subjective aspect of shooting. Some like one type and others like another. Is there a 'best', probably not the same 'best' for everyone, but most everyone has what they prefer - however, they should try them all, not just stay with one particular type. I've tried them all and have chosen my favourite. If someone else has only tried one or two types and shapes, how can they judge the value of the ones they didn't try? I've found one can not trust what is written by some people, but must try for oneself before deciding.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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