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Mike_Bailey
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Reged: 26/02/07
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Loc: GB
Whats this double like ?
      #90867 - 07/12/07 07:31 PM

Hi all, there is a double rifle coming up for sale, it is a custom shop gun over under in .470 NE, single selective trigger, based on a bolstered Browning B25 action with Dumoulin barrels, nice wood, auto ejectors and is mint. Stock fits me, sights sensible, 60 yds and 120yds, weight 10 1/2lbs, hold open toplever. it is at an auction. estimate is $10k-$14k. Any thoughts from anyone would be very welcome, the sale is soon so I need to decide, thanks in advance, Mike Bailey

Edited by Mike_Bailey (07/12/07 07:32 PM)


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500Nitro
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #90869 - 07/12/07 09:21 PM


2 Things I don't like.

1. Custom shop gun

2. Single Trigger

3. Over and Under


You can almost buy a brand new DR in 470NE
for $14,000


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peter
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #90902 - 08/12/07 07:11 AM

hi mike

it is the gun at holt right ?

there are better guns at that sale with a lot more value to them now and later.

are you going, we are a few people that are meeting for lunch there, pm me if you want to participate.

regards peter


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: peter]
      #90963 - 08/12/07 08:32 PM

I found out the single trigger is inertia, not mechanical so I will be swerving it. Any opinion on who makes the best O/U in .470 NE, single selective mechanical trigger ? thanks, Mike Bailey

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ArnoldB
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #91126 - 10/12/07 12:19 PM

Convert the inertia trigger to mechanical?

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #91648 - 15/12/07 03:34 PM

Quote:


2 Things I don't like.

1. Custom shop gun

2. Single Trigger

3. Over and Under


You can almost buy a brand new DR in 470NE
for $14,000





One thing I would never spend $14K on is any O/U double rifle, and less for a custom shop double rifle, but if it had a single trigger, I wouldn't even look at it if I had to keep the single trigger! SO! I guess I have to agree 100% with 500Nitro!

Don't buy anything on my personal choices, because they are just that, PERSONAL!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #91649 - 15/12/07 03:38 PM

Quote:

I found out the single trigger is inertia, not mechanical so I will be swerving it. Any opinion on who makes the best O/U in .470 NE, single selective mechanical trigger ? thanks, Mike Bailey




Mike, If I were to be forced to buy a 470NE, O/U double rifle, it would be a Heym! There isn't much danger of that happening with me, however!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #91652 - 15/12/07 03:46 PM

Mike,

Merkel made all of the big bore Nitro Express calibres on their 323 E and 324 sidelock U/Os but that was a long time ago. Not sure if Westley RIchards made 470s but they did make U/Os with their 425 W-R round even with single triggers for clients who preferred that configuration.

IIRC One of the Christopher Austyn books has a chapter dedicated to big bore U/Os.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #91671 - 15/12/07 10:46 PM

Well Guys, it didn't sell. The thing is I have Hollands building me a .375 rimmed Royal at the moment which should be ready in about 18 months. I can use that everywhere BUT since I am going to Africa next October and will be trying for a hippo and the year after going on a buff hunt I wanted a .470 back up. I really didn't want to invest 40k$ in something I rarely use, though I will practice with what I buy. I spoke to Heym direct and they gave me a good quote for an O/U double but when the actual dealer in Spain came back then the price had doubled and again was up at about US$40k. I have spoken to a friend who is in the trade. Dunmoulin make some barrels for him, They have said they can convert the trigger to mechanical, I can get the action case hardened, a finish I prefer, and then get the stock altered to fit and I think I will own a decent .470 double (the O/U doesn't faze me at all, whilst I can shoot both I always shoot an O/U shotgun better than a S/S) for less than US$10k. Thoughts ??
and thanks for the feedback
Mike


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #91702 - 16/12/07 05:46 AM

Quote:

Well Guys, it didn't sell.




I'm not surprised. O/U DRs are a pretty tough sell in the large bores for good reason.

Quote:

I have spoken to a friend who is in the trade. Dunmoulin make some barrels for him, They have said they can convert the trigger to mechanical, I can get the action case hardened, a finish I prefer,




I assume you're referring to another B25 action here? Bad idea to case harden a tool steel action, which I think the B25 is. At least it's not normally case hardened.

Quote:

(the O/U doesn't faze me at all, whilst I can shoot both I always shoot an O/U shotgun better than a S/S)




A double shotgun isn't a double rifle, not even close. I shoot O/U shotguns too, but you couldn't run fast enough to give me a large bore O/U DR. The O/U DR is not favored in large bores, and in this case there's really no need to get into why. Since you already have a medium bore side by side DR with double triggers being built and have an African trip planned, I think mating it with a single trigger O/U large bore is a particularly poor idea. If you don't want to spend a lot for the large bore, that's fine, but you'd be far better off to get another double trigger side by side. A solid quality new rifle like the Heym PH Model in .470 is available here in the US for $16,000. I know that the Heym is somewhat more expensive in Europe, but the difference shouldn't be that big of a deal if you can afford to have a new Royal built.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91703 - 16/12/07 06:26 AM

Mike,
I'm with you I always shoot O/U better than S/S which is why I have no S/S shotguns,just am not effective with them. That being said I personally would have no objections with an O/U big bore and the single drawback with the Browning you are talking about to me is the inertia single trigger. If it can be converted to manual I'd go for it. The fact that it's built on a shotgun action would make a difference MAYBE if you were going to put thousands of rounds thru it but if you are like most of us (which you probably aren't if you have an H&H Royal on order) it will be more like hundreds of rounds at most thru it. It's not exactly a plinking gun you know. I see no severe drawbacks, but the traditionalists on here believe if it's not English and a traditional builder it is of no value or quality. I personally liked the Valmets I owned as far as performance went, esthetically they left a lot to be desired. They were only 9.3x74's but really handled nicely,far better than any S/S I've owned. As I say I'm a majority of one but if you like it get it.


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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91704 - 16/12/07 07:11 AM

I wonder how many people with strong feelings against O/U double rifles have actually hunted with one.

I suppose that would be difficult if were necessary to run the shooter down to get him to try it.

It has been noted that Europeans and Americans prefer O/U shotguns and the British prefer S/S. The only S/S shotguns I have ever seen on a trap/skeet field belonged to shooters trying to tune up for the hunting season, not serious competiters. I venture to say that a S/S has not been seen on an Olympic skeet field in 40 years, and in my humble opinion Olympic (International) Skeet is the best gun handling practice there is, followed by Sporting Clays, another sport dominated by the O/U shotgun.

I spent years shooting international skeet with a pair of Perazzi Skeet I (O/U)shotguns. When I bought my first double rifle, a Krieghoff Teck (O/U) in .458, nothing could have been more logical for me than to take the stock measurements right off my Perazzi stock. The Krieghoff fits me just as well as the Perazzi, and yes, I have shot skeet with it, too, using .410 shells. They come out swelled and unreloadable, but if you can hit a low house station 8 with your double rifle, you can feel confident about charging dangerous game.

I have killed one elephant, one Cape buffalo, a lion, leopard, eland, greater kudu and lesser kudu (the last five with the .375 H&H interchangeable barrels) and have experienced no difficulty whatsoever. I would not hesitate to use the rifle again for dangerous game.

I once owned a Westley Richards Ovundo drop lock double rifle caliber .400/.350. I let the rifle go, because there was no ammunition available for it, or proper bullets, for that matter. With the advent of Woodleigh 300 grain bullets, I have wished time and again that I had it back.

There have been varying opinions as to why Americans have not taken to S/S shotguns. One is that shooters brought up on lever actions with long tubular magazines and narrow deep forearms are more accustomed to the feel of an O/U. (The same could be said for the feel of a repeating shotgun like the Browning or Winchester Model 12). There was also the theory that British O/U's were less popular because they were more expensive than their S/S counterparts, and that was certainly the case where the major gun makers were concerned.

Then there is the question of gape, and the idea that O/Us must be opened wider than S/Ss to reload them, which is quite accurate. However, this is not a problem that a few hours of practice on the skeet or trap field cannot overcome. I, personally, had never even thought of the issue until I read someone's comment to that effect.

Having said all that, anyone else is perfectly free to spend his money however he cares to, and if buying a traditional British (or even a non-British) S/S is what makes them happy, then more power to them. I feel the same way on this issue as I do about religion. It makes no difference to me what another person believes, as long as he does not attempt to foist his beliefs on me and as long as his practice of his beliefs do not interfere with me.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: zimhunter]
      #91705 - 16/12/07 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by zimhunter:

I see no severe drawbacks, but the traditionalists on here believe if it's not English and a traditional builder it is of no value or quality.




Nothing could be further from the truth.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: xausa]
      #91706 - 16/12/07 08:28 AM

Quote:

I wonder how many people with strong feelings against O/U double rifles have actually hunted with one.




After having tried them, why would someone wish to actually hunt with an inferior design?

Quote:

It has been noted that Europeans and Americans prefer O/U shotguns and the British prefer S/S. The only S/S shotguns I have ever seen on a trap/skeet field belonged to shooters trying to tune up for the hunting season, not serious competiters. I venture to say that a S/S has not been seen on an Olympic skeet field in 40 years, and in my humble opinion Olympic (International) Skeet is the best gun handling practice there is, followed by Sporting Clays, another sport dominated by the O/U shotgun.




Why is it that so many seem to have so much trouble understanding the difference between a shotgun and a rifle?

Quote:

Then there is the question of gape, and the idea that O/Us must be opened wider than S/Ss to reload them, which is quite accurate. However, this is not a problem that a few hours of practice on the skeet or trap field cannot overcome.




I have many, many days and tens of thousands of rounds through O/U shotguns on the skeet, clays, and hunting fields, and can tell you that the above statement simply isn't true. Since your double rifles have been O/Us, I'm not surprised that you're not aware of it.

The real issue raised by Mike's post isn't the S/S or O/U debate anyway. The issue is mating a S/S double trigger .375 with an O/U single trigger .470. It isn't a very good idea.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91707 - 16/12/07 09:17 AM

They are willing to change it to a double trigger as well. I am happy with either. I would have prefered the Holland in O/U but they can't make it, (only Boss do it) and as to an earlier chaps quote about not differenciating between shotguns and rifles (doubles), I thought the idea was speed of handling, both being marvellous ?, best, mike Bailey

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ArnoldB
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Loc: Uk
Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #91709 - 16/12/07 09:56 AM

There is more then one english maker that will make an O/U double rifle.

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zimhunter
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Reged: 05/02/04
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Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: ArnoldB]
      #91711 - 16/12/07 10:17 AM

Just as a side answer my favorite 2 of several shotguns are my Grade VI 28ga Browning Lightening single trigger and my 12ga solid rib Berreta ASE double trigger and I can assure you when a covey gets up I usually get (and hit ) two birds, with either gun. As long as we are on the subject it also amazes me WHY the dinky little splinter forearms are so prized. Then the people who shoot them on shotguns have to have the leather contraption to slide down over the barrels to keep from burning their fingers. A well fitted beavertail solves this problem but is I'm sure more difficult to fit. Lest you think I have no experience with S/S double rifles I have owned Cogswell Harrison,Geyger,Chapuis,Several Merkels in mostly big calibers including 470 and 450/400. My current double is a Merkel S/S 8x57JRS model 141(with single trigger) as I have probably done my last hunt in Africa.

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xausa
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91713 - 16/12/07 10:27 AM

"I have many, many days and tens of thousands of rounds through O/U shotguns on the skeet, clays, and hunting fields, and can tell you that the above statement simply isn't true."

Why on earth would one want to spend all that time and expend that many shells through an "inferior design" which presents such loading difficulties?

It seems to me that the crucial feature which separates double rifles from other weapons is their handling qualities. All the other features of a double rifle: two shots without reloading, two separate mechanisms in case one fails, two triggers for the same reason are equally shared by both configurations.

At the risk of seeming obtuse, perhaps you could explain to me why O/U shotguns are preferred over S/S in competetive shooting, when handling qualities are especially important. Then you could explain to me why the handling qualities of a S/S rifle are superior to an O/U, when the relationship of shot barrel to rifle barrel is the same.

I can understand a preference for S/S rifles based on the premise that O/U rifles are generally lighter and built for European style hunting, with perhaps less weight concentrated between the hands, which is a handling issue, but is not defined by barrel configuration.

My Krieghoff O/U has a Kersten locking system, which some may find objectionable, but I do not. Other O/U double rifles do not share this feature. My Westley Richards Ovundo did not.

A simple ad hominum characterization of "inferior design" will not convince a discerning reader without further exposition.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: ArnoldB]
      #91715 - 16/12/07 10:35 AM

Quote:

There is more then one english maker that will make an O/U double rifle.




I seem to remember that Westley was going to offer the Ovundo again in DR form. I may not be remembering that correctly, as I don't see it on their web site. They dropped the Ovundo in DR form long ago supposedly due to strength issues. Maybe they've gotten that problem corrected.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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NE450No2
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: xausa]
      #91717 - 16/12/07 10:42 AM

Mike
There is a big difference between what a shotgun is for and what a double rifle is for.

Also you would be trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear.

If you have a 375 SXS double comming you will not want an O/U in 470.

I recommend you just ues your 375 for everything [I have killed buff and elephant with a double 9,3x74R,] or buy a 470 and sell it when you get back, if you find you have no further use for it..

What ever you do forget about that cobbled together O/U 470.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: xausa]
      #91724 - 16/12/07 11:49 AM

Quote:

"I have many, many days and tens of thousands of rounds through O/U shotguns on the skeet, clays, and hunting fields, and can tell you that the above statement simply isn't true."

Why on earth would one want to spend all that time and expend that many shells through an "inferior design" which presents such loading difficulties?




Again, I was referring to shotguns, not rifles. They're clean different things intended for completely different purposes, and what is acceptable for one is not for the other. The speed of the reload with a shotgun is of no importance whatsoever in competition, and is very rarely of any importance in the hunting field. Not so with double rifles.

Quote:

At the risk of seeming obtuse, perhaps you could explain to me why O/U shotguns are preferred over S/S in competetive shooting, when handling qualities are especially important.




Again, you're talking about target shotguns, which simply isn't relevant to double rifles. You clearly have your head in target shotgunning and not in double barrel hunting rifles, or hunting guns in general. A competition target shotgun has no more in common with a game gun than a competition bench rest rifle has with an ideal hunting rifle.

If handling qualities are emphasized in target shotguns (like the K-80 for example), somebody sure screwed 'em up. Of course they aren't, only swing is.

Quote:

Then you could explain to me why the handling qualities of a S/S rifle are superior to an O/U, when the relationship of shot barrel to rifle barrel is the same.




There are some things that you can't calculate on a piece of paper. I own three times as many O/U shotguns as I do S/S shotguns. I've tried O/U rifles. Don't want one, wouldn't use one.

Quote:

I can understand a preference for S/S rifles based on the premise that O/U rifles are generally lighter and built for European style hunting, with perhaps less weight concentrated between the hands, which is a handling issue, but is not defined by barrel configuration.




Not true. It does represent a handling issue which IS defined by barrel configuration. Especially with rifle barrels, it's difficult to concentrate as much weight between the hands with an O/U action as compared to a S/S action. A glance at both actions makes the why obvious.

Quote:

A simple ad hominum characterization of "inferior design" will not convince a discerning reader without further exposition.




I'm not trying to convince you of anything as I think your mind is closed. Most people don't agree with you and have voted with their pocketbooks. Large bore O/U DRs are slow sellers and are rather cheap on the used market, as few want them.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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zimhunter
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91733 - 16/12/07 01:15 PM

For many years O/U's were far more expensive than S/S guns in either type and therefor less popular. Only in about the last 20 years or so have O/U's taken the lead and have far become the more prevalent type of two barreled shotgun. Other than buttstock I find little real difference in a competition gun and a hunting gun as far as shotguns are concerned. I have used Valmet O/U rifles and did not in the least feel handicapped using them, but then I am able to walk and chew gum at the same time. I buy and use what I like and you buy and use what you like and we will both be happy.

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xausa
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91739 - 16/12/07 02:22 PM

"Again, you're talking about target shotguns, which simply isn't relevant to double rifles. You clearly have your head in target shotgunning and not in double barrel hunting rifles, or hunting guns in general. A competition target shotgun has no more in common with a game gun than a competition bench rest rifle has with an ideal hunting rifle.

If handling qualities are emphasized in target shotguns (like the K-80 for example), somebody sure screwed 'em up. Of course they aren't, only swing is."

But I'm not talking about "target shotguns" and never have. I am talking about the shotguns used in International Skeet competition, not American skeet or trap or down the line or Olympic trench. I am talking about competition where the shooter starts at low gun position and is not allowed to mount the gun until the target is visible outside the house.

Shooting under those conditions required not only a perfect swing, but also flawless gun mounting and trigger control. In American skeet, Station 8, where you stand in the middle and face the trap houses alternatively, is virtually the easiest station on the field. At International Skeet it is among the most difficult, since you have to react to a target moving roughly 100 miles per hour, shoulder your gun, swing with the target and release the trigger, all before the target gets past you. Add to this the variable delay of up to three seconds which occurs with every international skeet target shot, which means that the shooter must react to the target, not the target to the shooter.

Errors in stance and form become glaring under those circumstances and the ultimate in a well balanced and handling gun is required. Calculate the time required for such a target to pass station 8 and then subtract the minimum human reaction time, and what is left is how much time you have to perform these actions.

No exaggerated Monte Carlo stock or high rib is going to be of any use and the ideal gun to use is identical with the ideal hunting shotgun, which is why I prefer my Beretta SO3 in the field to every other hunting shotgun I own.

In my experience, the K-80 is something found chiefly on the international trap field, where the weight compensates for the recoil of the heavy load shotshells used, or in American skeet, where the multi-barrel sets are advantageous and the clumsy handling qualities are not a handicap, since the gun is mounted before the target is called for and, as you say, only swing is emphasized.


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4seventy
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: xausa]
      #91750 - 16/12/07 10:07 PM

Quote:

I wonder how many people with strong feelings against O/U double rifles have actually hunted with one.




xausa,
Yeah, good point!


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Whats this double like ? [Re: 4seventy]
      #91753 - 17/12/07 12:53 AM

Thanks all, Dumoulin are not cheap end so I doubt the product is bad, the action is tried and tested and after case hardening will look nicer. my only thoughts are whether to get it altered to single mechanical or double trigger. I have never seen a B25 action with 2 triggers. It has a test target, 1.5", 4 shots at 60 yds. I will let you all know what transpires. thanks, Mike Bailey

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