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hoppdoc
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #80422 - 12/06/07 12:58 PM

Think I read of an old maneater monster Alaskan Grizz who killed many folk but finally a man and a woman sightseer, partially ate them and then attacked a hunter with a 7 mag who shot the animal ?(5)multiple times with apparent minimal effect before the creature died.The hunter reloaded for the killing shots.The monster bear is displayed at a fed site somewhere.

I think a proper stopping gun would be 458 class(not 45-70!) and NOT a shotgun, although smaller rifle calibers will obviously kill a non charging animal.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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DPhillips
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80570 - 14/06/07 04:30 AM

Quote:

Think I read of an old maneater monster Alaskan Grizz who killed many folk but finally a man and a woman sightseer, partially ate them and then attacked a hunter with a 7 mag who shot the animal ?(5)multiple times with apparent minimal effect before the creature died.The hunter reloaded for the killing shots.The monster bear is displayed at a fed site somewhere.

I think a proper stopping gun would be 458 class(not 45-70!) and NOT a shotgun, although smaller rifle calibers will obviously kill a non charging animal.



That story is an internet legend (fraud)...

The bear was taken by Ted Winnen on a hunt. It had not eaten anyone and wasn't anywhere near as large as the rumors reported it to be, though it was still quite large. Although I did hear that it dunked on Shaq once...

Winnen used a 338 Win Mag on the hunt.


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WyoJoe
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DPhillips]
      #80644 - 15/06/07 12:57 AM

Here is the ultimate bear stopper. http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

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There comes a time when one must take a position that is neither safe, nor polite, nor popular -- but one must ask, "Is it right?"

Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Tatume
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #80647 - 15/06/07 01:15 AM

Hello Folks,
Is it just me, or do any of you have doubts about a product based on poor grammer in the advertisements? My feeling is, if they can't go to the trouble of proof-reading the ad, how much attention to detail do they give the product?

Example: http://www.mccannindustries.com/rifles/458garand/458garand.html

Take care, Tom


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Tatume]
      #80666 - 15/06/07 10:03 AM

Quote:

Hello Folks,
Is it just me, or do any of you have doubts about a product based on poor grammer in the advertisements?

Take care, Tom




Oops.

I assume you mean "grammar".

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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3sixbits
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #82915 - 23/07/07 11:17 AM

Anybody that wants to have to kill any bear in defence of life or property in this state of Alaska, is nuts. ANYTHING you can do to avoid that is the way to go. You kill one you have to surrender the head and hide to the state. One hell of a lot of work.

870 Remington mag extension tube 20" barrel with slugs is State issue for government employees in the bush for bear protection.


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82917 - 23/07/07 11:31 AM

Quote:

870 Remington mag extension tube 20" barrel with slugs is State issue for government employees in the bush for bear protection.




Cheap & easily obtained. Two prime requisites for gubmn't bureaucratic decision-making in many categories.

Seriously, I wonder how many of these shootin' irons have ever been used against a seriously motivated large bear.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Shackleton
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: WyoJoe]
      #84194 - 18/08/07 10:37 AM

Why not the right double shotgun with slugs? Last year I saw a 3 1/2 inch mag slug load intended for "dangerous game". I'm assuming a nice and heavy hard slug but didn't look into it any farther-don't need a load that heavy for Iowa whitetails. They were about $30 for a box of 5, but if you're not going to use them outside of a life and death situation why would you need more than 2-3 boxes(one to find out what to expect, the rest in case they're needed). That way, it's still a "double", add rifled choke tubes(my shotgun's only a Stoeger but I'm sure some higher end makers offer doubles that take choke tubes) for a bit of accuracy improvement if desired-probably unnecessary at charging range, but someone might want it for hunting. Buy a double in 3 1/2 inch or if barrel contours allow it ream a 3 inch to 3 1/2, drill and tap the rib and install rifle sights, find out point of aim and it should be ready. I prefer a the right double with double triggers to a single barrel action for survival, easier to switch triggers in an emergency than to switch guns-if a second is available.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Strawman419
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Shackleton]
      #85587 - 14/09/07 03:30 AM

I think Shackleton has a point, I have some lightfield 3 1/2 inch mag slugs that create close to 4000 foot pounds, and you could have that in a pump that could hold four or more and is very easy to point, with that much power available, I think it makes shotguns a great option, but unless you have a shotgun that can handle the big slugs, a large caliber rifle would be better.

--------------------
"Pray not for lighter burdens, but for stronger backs." T. Roosevelt


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Tatume
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Strawman419]
      #85595 - 14/09/07 06:05 AM

A friend of mine working for the USFWS told me he was issued a 12 ga pump shotgun. He was required to carry the gun loaded with a rubber-bullet load in the chamber and slugs in the magazine. I agree with 3sixbits, and not just in Alaska. Killing bears (other than hunting) in loads of trouble which is well worth avoiding *if possible*. The potential for criminal charges is all too real. Take care, Tom

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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Tatume]
      #85625 - 15/09/07 01:31 AM

I'll defend my premise of the pump being faster than an auto. In my hands, those of a police firearms instructor, and those hands of my students who practised what they were taught; we can clean 6 silouettes in 2 to 2 1/2 seconds at 25 yards. I'd like to see the auto shooter who can do that. When one works the slide of the pump, one brings it back to 'point' when racking it foreward, chambering the next round. It takes practise, due to the timing necessary, but then when possibly faced with life threatening situations, a prudent person practises.
; A hardened round ball of 14 bore (.69 cal.), driven at 1,400fps, will exit an Indian Elephant's head on a broadside shot. It worked in the 1850's and it will work today. While I have never had to use a gun to defend against a charging bear, I am confident that the properly loaded 12 bore will suffice and be amongst the fastest shooting smackers there are. The pump is faster than a double and faster than an auto. One automatically brings the gun to bear with the action of the forend, not having to 'pull' the gun down with 'extra' muscle movements.
: It is quite possible that a lay-zee peason might be able to shoot an auto faster than a pump, but practise with a pump is all that's necessary to cut one's times in half. A slow auto or double can get you killed.
: 3 empties in the air at the same time - piece of cake, and all well aimed shots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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peter
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85650 - 15/09/07 06:36 AM

daryl
im sure you are very good with a pump, but they still are ugly as hell and will never have the balance and feel as a nice SxS, you can bring a M-60 to the forest and that should be abel to kill bears as well, but that wouldent be sporting either.(sorry im rambling its late)
my point being that i had the expirence that it is easyere to teach people to hit and hit good with a well balanced dobbel than with a pump or an auto.(you dont play baseball with a 4"x4" unless you have to).
in the end it is about hitting with your first shot and let that take them down. i dont know shit about bears only that bigger is better and use enough gun.

peter


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: peter]
      #85655 - 15/09/07 08:05 AM

While I had a good double 12 that put the balls where it should, many don't. The single barrel is easier to teach, if my students are any indication of that.
; I-too preferred to hunt with the double. Hunting and protection form big bears are two different matters. Ask my buddies who called in 5 grizzlies when Elk hunting with their long bows. A big boar grizzly stopped within 10 feet of big Dave, looking him over very closely. He thought he was dead and actually prayed for a quick death. Luckily the bears moved off with never identifying the 'boys' well.
: Dave was sitting on his stand at ground height. The bear's head was just a wee bit higher than his. Dave is 6'2" tall. Hmmm, lets see, two shots then reload - Not.
: They no longer bow hunt in the North, here and take their salvation as being a warning.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Shackleton
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85664 - 15/09/07 11:18 AM

I realize that 4-6 shots(depending on pump model) are better than 2, IF you get to use them all. My reasoning behind a double-again, the "right" one-one that puts the holes in the right place and will stand up to hot, hard slugs-is the idea that it would be a life and death issue. It's rare whan the gun's maintained, but I have had pump actions malfunction, whether parts failure or a simple feed jam. All but one case were in old guns that hadn't been maintained properly, bought by me cheaply and fixed after the problems, but there's that slim chance that it could happen in a new gun. I had an action jam shut in a brand new Remington 870 a couple years ago while duck hunting. It onlty happened that once, but I had to disassemble the gun to get the action to open. With a double-trigger SXS you essentially have 2 guns on 1 stock. As long as you don't pull both triggers at once, you'll still have that second shot for a followup.

In an actual hunting situation I'd take a rifle of appropriate caliber over any shotgun but for survival issues I'd still go with the double shotgun-and have some shot loads along as well in case of a "true" survival situation-if lost in unfamiliar forest four or five rounds of No. 4 can keep you from starving to death where a heavy rifle or slug will turn your small game dinner into a stain on the ground.

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85686 - 15/09/07 11:33 PM

For overall hunting of griz or browns, I would use the old .375--

As to your story of being charged, living in close proximity to Yellowstone National Park--and as a bow hunter as well, we have also had more than one run in with grizzlies..the most recent of which was last year--my best friend (John) was going around this area on one side and myself on the other--was both carry handguns while John also carries pepper spray--while we each were sneaking along, John heard a woof above him and saw a boar grizzly at about 50 yards feeding on a dead elk..John said he slowly tried to back up while trying to get his hand on his revolver.. the bear charged.. John stated by the time he even got his hand on the holster, unclipped the latch, the bear was 10 feet away snapping his teeth..John froze --the bear slowly walked away,, and once about 25 feet away, he looked at him again, woofed another time and walked back to the dead elk.. give the bear his due, all he was doing was protecting his food---but it could have gone much worse..IT took John quite a bit to even get his wits about him--he said he could hear his heart beating in his ears both before, during and after the encounter..and never had the time to do anything.. it all happened too fast...so one must really proceed cautiously while in these types of situations..

A local photographer was attached late spring this year in my home town.. after 8 surgeries and one less eye, he is still not back to normal--(whatever that means)...

I hunted brown bear in AK a few years back and laughed when I read the article to taking the gun to the outhouse...as that was my experience as well---I was NOT allowed to go outside to the outhouse without taking the camp .375 along--or even if I wanted to do a little fishing close to camp.. had to have the gun on me..no questions.. in this particular camp during the prior years hunt.. a brownie had literally ripped off part of the addition to the cabin, gone inside and helped himself to the canned goods in the kitchen..after done he left a nice "steamy" thank you in the living room..

All in all, however, bears are really, really cool...however they demand a great deal of respect.. give them that and a little common sense..and in most cases you will be alright..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85687 - 15/09/07 11:44 PM

This is my brownie taken in 2001--9'2" squared--taken near Lake Illiamna..



--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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500Nitro
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85690 - 16/09/07 12:04 AM



Ripp

Superb ! Great Pic.

I hope you didn't get it on the way to the outhouse !!!


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #85693 - 16/09/07 02:04 AM

Nice bear, Ripp. A Really nice picture would have been with his head in your lap.
: The camp I guide from, has a double 12 loaded with 575gr. Brenneke's for trouble bears. My own 'camp' gun, when doing gaurd duty for the cook and her kids, was my trusty little .458 2" with 560gr. flat nosed hard cast bullets at 1,860fps. I also had some 350gr. "X" bullets running 2,275fps for backup when guiding. While I would have prefered a 12 pump as noted in above posts, I hadn't worked up RB loads for my 12 at that time. Trouble with rifles, is the slow bolt time between the 'fire for a scare' shot and firing to protect one's hide. One sometimes just doesn't have time to work a bolt. When they want to, bears move like cats. A serious grizzly bear fight is amazing in it's blurr of motion.
: Pumps are still the fastest action - perhaps only for a few who are willing to practise. Most people wait until they've recovered from recoil before they work the trombone - all wrong. Working the action the instant of firing is what brings the gun down out of recoil and back onto target. The eye seemingly never leaves the target. Sights just get in the way at the close ranges necessary.
: Fellow a few years back, only 60 miles West of here, was walking along a trail and was jumped by a smallish 450 pound sow grizzly. She was protecting her moose kill just off the well-worn trail. The moose was not visible from the trail - similar to Ripp's story. The bear hit him from above, knocking the rifle out of his hands, and they rolled around for a spell, her biting him all over. He never heard her coming as is normal with a preditary attack - fast and low, no bluff intended by her as is sometimes normal. He managed to get his belt knife out and after many cuts, the sow moved off and died from having her corotids cut. He managed to crawl out to his truck and drive to town - not sure about his transport. He was lucky. He didn't even know at the time of the attack, that she'd ripped his legs up, he thought only his arms, shoulders and head, yet his thighs were badly bitten and torn. He was very lucky the femoral arteries weren't cut.
: Bear Awareness course I took some time ago, noted to carry a knife with at least an 8" blade. The standard 4" to 4 1/2" will barely reach the corotids and never the heart. It takes 8" to do that. The course also enforced that a 12 bore pump with slugs was the best face to face defence. They were talking about 1-1/4 ounce Fed slugs, not the 1 ounce or smaller sabot bullets which are generally no more effective than handguns. The bullets they shoot generally lack penetration, just like the 1 ounce pure lead Fosters. The 1 ounce and handguns have worked in the past, but the 1-1/4 ounce are better. Solid WW alloy round balls are the best of all.
: In a 12 bore, a Wheel/Weight .715" to .725" (for cylinder chokes) round ball, weighing 530gr., held in a trap wad, petals cut off at 1/4" to 3/8" height, loaded over a heavy field load (Hodgdon's longshot)for 1 1/4oz shot load, running 1,400fps to 1,550fps kicks no harder than a heavy 1-1/4oz duck load and deliveres the same punch as the African 12 bore 7 dram BP 1880's load heaviest of the 12 bore African loads. If recoil means power to you, load the plastic case with 190gr. 2F, cup wad and the round ball. The recoil is quite memorable, but delivers no more power than the light kicking 1-1/4 ounce shot load. Juggling powder charges slightly, along with wads, can give you a very powerful, deeply penetrating load, one that will break both shoulders of a bear or go full length. Either tends to relax them quickly.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Ripp
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #85706 - 16/09/07 03:33 AM

Interesting side note--after I posted my memo and photo I went to breakfast at one of the local restaurants--picked up the local paper--Bozeman Daily Chronicle--if anyone wants to get on to read the story..anyway--it appears the 2nd bowhunter in a week was hospitalized from a grizzly attack..

The usual scenario--bow hunting--cow calling--sow with cubs come in --he moved to get away and she attacked as she was spooked by his movement--pulled him back out of a tree he was trying to get into.. he played dead after he hit the ground--after a swat or two--she left with her cubs..

The other problem we have in this area is that there has NOT been a Grizzly hunting season in almost 30 years--the grizzlies have lost a lot of their natural fear of man--which has caused a larger than normal incidence of attacks for bow hunters..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Ripp]
      #85709 - 16/09/07 04:36 AM

Ripp- although we do have grizzly hunts here, the bears still view rifle shots as dinner bells abd wll come to a shot to take over the moose, elk or deer. They, of course, locate camps by smell, then actually dog bow hunters as they head out hunting, sometimes waiting for the hunters to make a kill for them to take over. Happened to a few of the archery fellows from the club I used to frequent. This happens often in the Dunlevy Creek area near Hudson Hope, B.C. This was the same basic area of the two bow hunters who called in the 5 adult bears. I found it interesting that there would be 5 adults in the same area, but it happens there now, more than ever. The same thing occurs around Mackenzie, B.C. One summer and fall season, over 64 grizzlies had to be shot in town. The town had put an electric fence around the town dump so town people could use the dump. The bears, used to fattening up on Mackenzie's garbage, came to town instead, for garbage of course. These days, they just burrow underneath the fence, I'm told. The town shootup taught them a very severe lesson to stay out of town. They do frequent the golf course though, with signs warning of bears frequenting certain holes - makes for an interesting game, eh?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Dphariss
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #86121 - 23/09/07 05:23 PM

45-70 loaded with the Core-Bon 350 gr load. Even the 22" barreled Marlin is a pretty good handling gun. Guide gun is just too short IMO.
The only suitable bullet for handloaders that will work through the lever action repeater is the 400 gr Speer and its too soft, or so they claim, for big bears. Most shotgun slugs are too. A handloaded hardened round ball is a better load for a shotgun.
Speer makes a 350gr 45 cal bullet that is hard enough but the bullet is designed for the 458 and will not feed though the Marlin seated to the cannelure.
Second choice would be a hard cast bullet of about 400 gr. at 1750fps or so. RCBS makes a GC bullet that would work OK for this.

Dan


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gator
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #90658 - 05/12/07 01:49 PM

well if you whole idea is to stop it and it's a nice sunny day a new auto shot gun, that'll unload 12 ronds in 1.7 seconds would work ... not very sporting but it would work.

but most people I know that guide up there use a 45/70 or a 444 marlin.


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Nakihunter
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: gator]
      #90678 - 05/12/07 04:36 PM

If anyone is intersted, I got pics from my last guide in BC - of a 9 yer old girl who shot the new World recod brown bear - 11ft 9 inches & 1,800 lbs with skull of more than 33 inches! This was shot in Alaska last year & it was the kid's first bear hunt!! Should I post the pics here or is it old news???

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.


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DarylS
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: Dphariss]
      #90694 - 06/12/07 01:53 AM

Further to Dan's post, if you shorten .45/70 brass to 2", the Speer 350gr. bullet can be used. Shortening the brass allows crimping in the small groove and gives proper ctg. length for feeding in the Marlins. I'm now loading the 350gr. Speers in my .458 2" bolt gun for hunting though as yet, I haven't shot anything with them. They have jackets over .060" thick and should be very good penetrators and since they are designed for the .458 mag., are supposed to need 1,900fps for expansion, they should make super bear bullets for close range. The Marlin 22" barrel can get about 2,100fps (or more) with them and that's just great. I-too have difficulty with the 'guide' gun's short barrels, but a buddies stainless .45/70 18-1/2" guide gun gets 2,007fps with 400gr. Barnes flat noses - 49.0gr. Reloader #7, straight out of Speer's book and no pressure signs at all.
; My own preference for a camp gun is a 12 bore with solid round balls loaded to 1,550fps, but usually leave it at home and have only the .458 in camp. For bears in camp, I have 560gr. cast bullets loaded to 1,850fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: BEST BEAR STOPPER-DOUBLE vs SLUGGED SHOTGUN?? [Re: DarylS]
      #90771 - 06/12/07 04:00 PM

Quote:

a buddies stainless .45/70 18-1/2" guide gun gets 2,007fps with 400gr. Barnes flat noses




I have a treasured Marlin 1895 and have killed black bear, deer and one big mean range cow that came after me, all using a load of 402 grain cast hollowpoint at 1640 fps so I know a bit of what I'm saying when I say I think I'd rather throw myself on the mercy of a surly, maneating grizzbar than touch off one of them there loads from that thing.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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