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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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GoneShootin
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Loc: Sydney Australia
9.3 x ??? question
      #89853 - 27/11/07 12:18 PM

I have a small ring M98 which will be turned into a sporter since the reciever has already begun to be ground down (no more material that holds the stripper clips in place)

So i want a nice light sporter mainly for dear, decided on 9.3, since i have a 9.3x74R double, so i got bullets.

Now obviously 9.3x57 would cycle as good as 8mm but how about the 9.3x62?

How many rounds can you fit in the magazine and are pressures safe? This is a small ring action so i dont want to exceed 8mm ammo pressure. What sort of pressures do you get for both of those 9.3 varieties?

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: GoneShootin]
      #89884 - 27/11/07 04:15 PM

I have owned one of each 9.3X57 & 9.3X62. How ever I have not used them enough to claim expertise.

My opinion FWIW

Both rifles can be loaded to safe 8mm pressures - the old load data is around 50,000 PSI (& not 60,000+ psi that cartridges in the 270 range are loader to.)

Using 232 gr Norma bullets, you would have a great deer caliber up to 250 meters easily. You can get 2400 fps with the 57mm case & 2600 fps with the 62mm case - at low pressures. In a modern action like a CZ 550, Ruger or Winchester you can add 100 - 150 fps.

286 gr bullets will be adequate for African plans game - the 57mm case will give you 2150 fps & the 62mm case should do 2350 fps. This is also good enough for 250 meters.

I am working up loads for my Simson M98 rifle in 9.3X62 - aiming for a max of 2400 fps with 286gr bullets & the 250 gr Nosler & Barnes to 2600 fps. The pressure level Should be slightly higher than the 8mm but less than the 270 etc.

John Barness & Chub Eastman have written great articles on the 9.3s & medium bores (Dec 07) in Rifle & Handloader magazines. How ever these loads are higher pressure for modern rifles & they do up to 2650 fps with 250 gr & 2500 fps with 286 grs bullets.

Happy hunting.

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: GoneShootin]
      #89913 - 28/11/07 01:21 AM

A question; you mention the action is a smallring 98. There are such things in several different action lengths. The action LENGTH may help you decide. A full length large-ring 98 action will take the x62 in full factory overall length but a Swede 96 will not, and some other SR action lengths may not. It is possible your action might not be quite long enough.

Small-ring 96 actions will not handle all standard factory length cartrdges. If you have an action of less length than a German K98k stick with the 9.3x57.

The 9.3x62 is a great cartridge, a world standard and you will rightly probably here lots of praise sung about it here. It deserves every bit. It is a great cartridge. I'll leave it to others to comment on.

The 9.3x57 has alot going for it.

I have two right now. One, a 1939-made Husqvarna M146 built on an FN 98 action and the other a 1942-made Husky M46 built a 96. Five rounds fit in the magazine of either.

The 98 will allow bullets to be seated out quite far and in any case will not require bullet bases to be seated below the neck. This allows maximum case capacity and in conjunction with proper leade, maximum velocity.

There are factory loads available for the x57 but it is more or less a handloading proposition, which is no disadvantage as far as I am concerned. To the contrary, it might be an advantage. Cases are the cheap and plentiful 8x57's and in my rifles handloading requires no work other than running a 8x57 case thru the Hornady die and loading. Simple as that. No fireforming, no additional necking steps, nothing. Technically, the x62 has a different case head size than the standard .30-06 size so you may want to stick to x62 cases instead of making them from '06, etc. if yu go the x62 route. Lots of guys report using '06 cases without trouble, but you decide.

My pet load pushes a 285 grain bullet at 2100 fps. I do not know what pressures are generated by my loads, but IIRC, Norma {see their website} lists loads in the 38,000-to-45,000 cup range. I've held my loads to the 2100 fps speed, though in a strong action I suspect you could go higher. If my loads are hovering in the 40,000 cup range, I suspect quite a bit faster. I don't know.

I've shot whitetail deer, black bear, US elk/wapiti, coyote, little varmints and a big half-ton crazy steer at ranges from 10 yards to 200 meters with my x57's and I have absolutely no complaints. There are lots of bullets available for the 9.3 caliber so you would have no trouble keeping yourself busy developing loads. I even draw .375 caliber bullets down to .366 diameter and use them from time-to-time, among other things.

Recoil of the x57 is very mild. Very mild. One of my rifles weighs 5 1/2 lbs and everyone who shoots it comments at how light it kicks even with the 285 grain bullets. Why? I do not know. I find the 8x57 with various loads to be a sharper kicker than the 9.3x57.

And there lies another advantage of small-ring x57's; they can be built VERY light. I cannot imagine a better hound-hunting blackbear {or European dog handler's!!!} gun than a 6 lb, compact-scoped 96-actioned 9.3x57. Mine sports a Swedish jaktdiopter peep rear sight, but my bear houndsman friend has greedy eyes on it anyway...

Sounds like you have a fun project going. Let us know how it all works out!!

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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GoneShootin
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90083 - 29/11/07 07:51 PM

This particular action is a proper M98 length, Small ring M98.

Ill think about it i guess. Most australian deer hunting conditions are realatively close range, where to my understandin 100m would be a very long shot, seeing how well these actions cycle with 8mm ammo, i am very keen on maintaining the x57 case, however a bit more power is always a good thing.

I think ill sleep on the cartridge, and start worrying about the piece of wood.

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Paul
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: GoneShootin]
      #90089 - 29/11/07 11:30 PM

While on the subject of small-ring Mausers, it took me 40 years to understand absolutely why they added the extra diameter to the front ring on the 98. I finally saw an M93 or 96 that had blown up.
No, the large lugs weren't cracked off or damaged at all - but the front ring was split horizontally right through and peeled back like a banana. So, in the M98 the lugs seem to have got smaller and the front ring got a bit more girth. Marvellous what another three or four millimetres can do!

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Paul]
      #90141 - 30/11/07 01:05 PM

The barrel shank of the large ring Mauser is larger than the barrel shank of the small ring.

If I recall correctly, the ring on a small ring Mauser is about the same diameter as the M70 Win or the M700 Rem, although I might just be blowing.

What really scares me is the "gunsmiths" who turn down the large ring action to "make" a small ring action. That really thins the ring, considering the larger barrel shank. You also lose the case-hardened outer shell of the ring.

I have a beautiful G33/40 action squirreled away that has been in my closet for about 20+ years now. I always wanted to have a first class bolt gun made on it, then I got into double rifles. . . . .

Curl

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: CptCurl]
      #90151 - 30/11/07 01:53 PM

Quote:

I have a beautiful G33/40 action squirreled away that has been in my closet for about 20+ years now. Curl



What's the point in keeping an old piece of crap like that around?

The window in my office sends a breeze strong and fair across my desk, and I'm sure I could make use of that old chunk of iron to hold down some of my important papers, or, correspondingly, I could find some other purpose for it if you would only send it my way...

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90157 - 30/11/07 02:40 PM

On the subject of barrels reacting to extreme pressure, here are a few exampls

Firstly - I read an article in Rifle magazine a few years ago where some one had inadvertantly fired a 7mm mag round in a 270 Weatherby mag rifle. The result was that the bullet jammed in the throat but the lead core blew out, leaving the jacket stuck in the throat. The action was of course found in various parts of the Mongolian desert & even proably little old New Zealand! The shooter still picks bits of metal & wood from his face when he shaves.

The second one is a Brno 25'06 rifle that I saw with a famous gunsmith here in NZ. Some one brought it to him, saying "My mate fired a 308 round in it". Strangely the 308 bullet went right through the barrel & there was no evidence of any harm done to the barrel. The action & bolt had taken the huge pressure and cracked into small pieces but still held together. the stock was in the same state but falling apart. I saw this rifle in this condition. This shooter has no issues while shaving (but probably decided to grow a beard)!!

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Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

Edited by Nakihunter (30/11/07 02:48 PM)

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pjaln
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Nakihunter]
      #90274 - 01/12/07 01:50 PM

westley richards has a 9.3x62 on there sight for sale built on a small ring check it out ...paul

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90345 - 02/12/07 01:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:

I have a beautiful G33/40 action squirreled away that has been in my closet for about 20+ years now. Curl



What's the point in keeping an old piece of crap like that around?

The window in my office sends a breeze strong and fair across my desk, and I'm sure I could make use of that old chunk of iron to hold down some of my important papers, or, correspondingly, I could find some other purpose for it if you would only send it my way...



I must confess, I thought my comment might get a rise out of some Mauser lover.

Sorry, I may yet have use for that old paperweight. Instead of sending it to you, I just now snapped a photo of it. I'll send the photo instead.



The small ring Mauser that looks like a large ring!

I really do need to commission a fine custom rifle on this. I think I still have one or two walnut blanks worthy of it.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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capoward
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: CptCurl]
      #90350 - 02/12/07 02:39 PM

OK, I’ll bite.

Model 98 Mauser small ring actions have the following in common: a 1.300in / 3.302cm ring diameter and a .980in / 2.4892cm barrel shank. They are further broken down by action length: standard length being 7.835in / 19.9009cm between receiver screws, the intermediate length being 7.620in / 19.3548cm between receiver screws, and the true short being 7.225in / 18.35149cm between receiver screws.

M98 Mauser Small Ring Standard Length Actions:
3.315in / 8.4201cm internal magazine length
Commercial Husqvarna, Commercial Oberndorf, KAR98, G33-40, VZ33, and VZ47 Commercial Brno/Czechoslovakia
3.340in / 8.4836cm internal magazine length
VG47 Commercial Brno/Czechoslovakia

M98 Mauser Small Ring Intermediate Length Actions:
3.118in / 7.91972cm internal magazine length
M1910 Mexican FN/Mexico and M1936 Mexican FN/Mexico

M98 Mauser True Short Length Action:
2.725in / 6.9215cm internal magazine length
Commercial KURZ [this action is extremely rare]

If your M98 Mauser small ring action is in good mechanical shape without safety flaws; e.g., over-grinding of ring diameter to remove military caches or over-grinding of the feed ramp to fit .375 H&H Magnum length cartridges, it should handle any .532 case diameter or smaller case diameter cartridge that will fit and function within it’s action and magazine length limitations if the cartridge is loaded within CIP CUP or CIP PSI pressure limits.

Magazine capacity should be 5-down with the 9.3x62 and 3-down with the 9.3x64.

I support the proposition that a competent gunsmith should inspect all surplus military actions for safety issues and perform action alterations to the feeding ramps, and bolt face if needed, if the action is being re-barreled to a cartridge case other than the original specification case, as well as re-barreling the action.

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: capoward]
      #90357 - 02/12/07 05:38 PM

Capoward, great stuff, thanks for posting!

And CptCurl; That 33-40 looks perfectly tailor-made for a 19" barreled custom ultra-lightweight Nachsuchswaffe in 9.3x57!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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GoneShootin
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90362 - 03/12/07 12:06 AM

My action is a Standard length, small ring, large shank barrel action (no it hasn't been machined out, apart from the factory)

Which is why its not a really good idea to go high pressure, it probably rules out anything apart from x57 cartridges or smaller.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: CptCurl]
      #90392 - 03/12/07 05:31 AM

Curl - I agree with 9.3x57, the person and that ctg. would be perfect for your action and one that would get a lot of use if in my cabinet. Better yet, would be a 9.5x57 due to a wide range of easily available bullets from 235's (speer and barnes) to 250 Sierra BT's, perfect for the velocities of that round. As well, a good 300gr. RN Hornady at about 2,100fps would work well for heavy stuff in the bush.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: DarylS]
      #90441 - 03/12/07 04:14 PM

Quote:

Curl - I agree with 9.3x57, the person and that ctg. would be perfect for your action and one that would get a lot of use if in my cabinet. Better yet, would be a 9.5x57 due to a wide range of easily available bullets from 235's (speer and barnes) to 250 Sierra BT's, perfect for the velocities of that round. As well, a good 300gr. RN Hornady at about 2,100fps would work well for heavy stuff in the bush.



Would you get that velocity in a 9.3X57 with 8mm pressure levels? My old 9.3X57 gave about 2100fps with 286 gr bullets & a full case of IMR 3031. It barely did 2400fps with norma 232gr bullets & IMR 3031.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Nakihunter]
      #90445 - 03/12/07 10:28 PM

If I do a project with this action, I lean toward a 9x57. I already have a double rifle in that caliber and like it.

This should require absolutely no modification of the feeding rails or ramp.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: CptCurl]
      #90449 - 04/12/07 12:28 AM

Quote:

If I do a project with this action, I lean toward a 9x57. I already have a double rifle in that caliber and like it.

This should require absolutely no modification of the feeding rails or ramp.

Curl



This is another great cartridge.

All three; 9, 9.3 and 9.5 x57's are really fine cartridges for lightweight hunting rifles, and given good bullets will perform very well on der, bear, elk and moose. If I didn't already have the 9.3x57's and was going to have a >8mm built, it would be a tough choice as to which of the three I'd get. The 9.5 is awfully appealling due to the large variety of .375 bullets available, along with the cast bullet options as well, but there are sufficient bullets available in all three calibers.

The latter is another plus for all three in that near factory-velocities should be no problem with cast bullets in the heaviest weights for each. I just ordered a mold for my 9.3 and plan to work up some loads in the near future.

I do wish Graf's would bring in more of the Prvi Partizan 285 9.3 grain bullets. I have had super results on game with them in my x57's and they were inexpensive to-boot.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Nakihunter]
      #90465 - 04/12/07 05:18 AM

I think the ballistics I noted would be easy to get. Consider factory Norma or maybe it was RWS 8mm Mauser ammo with 224gr. bullets at 2,400fps+ and 196gr. TIG's at 2,550FPS+. Due to the larger bore size and greater expansion ratios, the 9mm, 9.3m and 9.5mm will deliver progressively higher velocities with the same bullet weights at the same pressure. ie: the 9.5 will deliver higher velocities with any bullet weight than will the 9.3mm, etc, etc.
; Given the action is in good shape with the appropriate heat treatment (of which I have no doubt) the action will easily handle 'normal' pressure for the .473" case. I believe there is no reason whatsoever to limit pressure to the current pre-1900 US specs for 8mm ammo. A reasonable pressure would be 57,000PSI(of Norma and RWS) to 61,000PSI which is still short for that brass in current modern loadings. At those 'normal' sub-max levels (63,000psi to 65,000 is normal max for that case size), the 9.5x57 should easily do 2,100fps with 300gr. bullets. Since the 9.3x57 will do 2,100fps or more with 286gr., the 9.5 should do the same with the next heavier bullet weight at almost identical pressures.
; I would use modern RP, WW or Fed 7mm Mauser brass for this rifle as it has shown itself capable of showing normal expansion at pressures well above 60,000 psi. An alternative is to use .270 .30/06 or .280 brass, expanding the necks in a .357 die first, then FL sizing in the appropriate FL die with the expander system removed will form the brass in one step. Final neck expansion can be done once the brass is trimmed to proper length and chamfered by another trip through the same die, assembled.
; Of course, there is nothing wrong with driving a 286gr. of any diameter at 2,150fps and using that for all big game shooting. It will work just fine. I just like 300gr. .375's I guess. BT- the 235gr. Speer would be a tremendous bullet in this 9.5mm ctg. Recovered 235 Speers from 4 moose showed excellent expansion, penetration and killing power when driven at a pokey 2,600fps from a .375H&H. I suspect the 9.5x57 might attain 2,450fps with this bullet - excellent for all-round use.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: DarylS]
      #90468 - 04/12/07 05:30 AM

9.3x57- leaning toward a 9x57, eh. A full .358 groove diameter, I'd imagine. There are some very good bullets in that relm and the 9x57 would deliver slightly better ballistics than the .358 Winchester when pushed a bit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: DarylS]
      #90494 - 04/12/07 10:55 AM

Darryl, I agree with you if you are looking at duplicating current European loads.

Regarding the use of 30'06 / 270 brass for 358 or 9.3 ammo, you will need to neck turn the cases after sizing. I ran into this problem while trying to make 358 ammo out of WW 30'06 / 270 brass. The wall thickness of the brass is greater at the body than at the neck. When sizing this thick brass to form the neck of the smaller case, the new neck becomes too thick. After seating the bullet, the ammo would not chamber in my Winchester Mod 70 custom carbine. I switched to 308 cases & it was a breeze (John Barsness from Rifle magazine says the same). For 57mm long cases, you might be best served with using Lapua or Norma brass.

I like the idea of a 9.5X57! I have found a Mannlicher Schoenauer 1910 for sale & it even has the flip up tang peep sight. I am wondering...... Then I would have to chose between my Simson 9.3X62 & the MS when I want to take one hunting - what a wonderful dilema to have!

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9.3x57
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Nakihunter]
      #90505 - 04/12/07 01:35 PM

Daryl, a .358x57 sounds like a really good option. The 57 millimeter case seems to me to be about perfect for various over-8mm bullet diameters for a light trail and stalking rifle for the timbered areas where I hunt.

As for loading steps, I use cheap Remington 8x57 brass in my 9.3x57's and have gotten many many loadings from them. With the tapered expander in the Hornady dies, loading is a one-pass snap as mentioned above. I would think that 8x57 brass would be just at easy to use to form 9.5x57 ammo also.

Naki: Grab that M-S 9.5x57!!!

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90508 - 04/12/07 01:50 PM

I agree about 8mm brass perhaps if DWM or RWS brass is used. I find Norma brass, while it is loaded to higher factory pressures than the same case in the US (in 8mm), that it is a bit soft in the head area for my liking, showing greater expansion than the other two mentioned. This seems to occurr with almost all Normal brass. Indeed, back in the 70's, we used it for lighter 200 meter match loads only.
; I think because it's loaded to such low factory presures, that perhaps the WW and RP in 8mm Mauser might not be as heavily made in the web area. Sectioning a couple for comparrison would show whether it is as strong as .270 and '06 brass or if it is indeed, more lightly made.
; When making big changes in ctg. cases, I make my own tapered expanders. With them, I can use 7mm mag cases for .458 WW MAG. brass and one pass is all that's necessary - from 7mm to .458 in one step. I don't anneal, either, unless the first or second one splits. When annealing, I only anneal 1/2 the neck, leaving the shoudler/neck joint wiht enough strength to withstand the pressure. If the whole neck and shoulder is annealed, the neck will generally collapse into the shoudler.
: As to turning necks, no problem with a K&M hand tool, or Forester inside neck reasmers on the little lathe-type case turner. Everyone has one anyway?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Nakihunter
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: DarylS]
      #90542 - 04/12/07 09:00 PM

I do not know the purpose of inside neck turnig. If the case neck diameter has been changed by necking up or down, there could be a minor variation in neck wall thickness. If uniform neck thickness & concentric bullet seating are the goal, then outer neck turning is the only way to achieve this. Using inner neck turning only follows the existing profile. While the neck wall might get thinner, resizing will only continue the variances in neck wall thickness & not provide uniform wall thickness or concentric neck / case alignment. If outer neck turning is done, then a pilot is used for centering the neck & only the surplus metal is removed from the outside of the neck. This provides uniform neck thickness & facilitates concentric seating of bullets in a neck that is aligned to the rest of the case.

Having said that, it probably makes little practical difference for medium or big bore hunting rounds that provide a minimum of 1.5" accuracy at 100 meters & are used up to a maximum of 300 meters.

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DarylS
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Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: Nakihunter]
      #90585 - 05/12/07 03:28 AM

We could get into the details of inside vs outside turning or reaming, but for a hunting rifle, they are virtually the same, accuracy wise.
; With an average of .006" to .008" expansion in the average hunting rifle chamber, a neck that's out of round .002" will make virtually no difference in accuracy.
; In the distant past, I always inside neck reamed and yet even in the 70's, my rifles all shot 1/2" or better which was deemed to be outrageous consistant accuracy for my 'sloppy' Mauser actions.
: I didn't start outside neck turning until I got into the centrefire .17 wildcats on gophers at long range. There, with properly fitted necks and/or much tighter chamber tolerances, outside neck turning became necessary. "0" runnout was the goal and often attainable, but for hunting rifles needed to shoot MOA, inside reaming works fine. Some of them, like the RCB inside reaming system of the 80's(maybe 70's) where the case is held in a die, the inside reaming is as accurate as outside turning. I had a gunsmith make me up a similar system for my .22 BR stuff back in the early 80's and it left case walls perfectly even, using a #1 drill in a guiding die body after partical neck sizing.
: The Forester reamers worked for me, for years.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Nakihunter
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Reged: 13/10/07
Posts: 588
Loc: New Zealand
Re: 9.3 x ??? question [Re: DarylS]
      #90617 - 05/12/07 08:26 AM

Thanks for sharing your experience Daryl. Much appreciated. My experience is limited to trying to make 358 out of 30'06 brass & fine tuning 280 Ackey Imp brass after 10 reloads (the cases were still ok but the necks had got thicker with the slow flow-forward of the brass). I found that run-out of more than 0.005" opened up groups beyond MOA. No, I am not a BR or long range varmint shooter. Just a regular guns & reloading looney as John Barness puts it!

Cheers

--------------------
Always shoot through the target & not just at it.

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