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93mouse
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Reged: 17/08/07
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Loc: Slovenia
Merkel open sights
      #89525 - 23/11/07 01:34 AM

Hi guys – perhaps you have seen “the thing” on other forums already but would love to hear from you - finally.

I am not quite satisfied with open sights on my Merkel – they are fast and on par for shooting up to 50m, but further out they just loose the edge. For comparison – I regularly shoot my Brno .22 l.r with factory open sights out to 75m without a problem – I will be happy to do the same with Merkel. There is always that extra need for checking if the top of the post is aligned with the top of the blade (IMO that red fiber glows to much on the top – so you have to look at it really carefully to determine the final upper edge).



I have shot app 200 rounds so far (shot 4 heads (3 red deer calves and 1 boar – some were nice shots some disastrous – front leg with left BBL after a miss with right – running shot at 8m). Results just differ too much – in short – I am not as pleased as Punch.

My vision is still OK – no problem with dim condition – yet - I could replace some of the speed for accuracy – extend the range out to 80m, maybe 100. I am definitely not looking for a scope or holosight - so a couple of options:

1. Change the front post for this one:



2. Change both – front and rear and put on classic express sights (have shot them with M70 in 458 WM and CZ 550 375 H&H – they are a bit odd (I am not used to them – they appear so low) but got good results and I guess I would adopt to them with ease.



or:



And a classic fixed 1 leaf rear with silver/gold line.

3. Leave them just as they are – shoot some more and get to know them better.

I know I should get the answer myself at the end but any opinion would help.

Gentlemen?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89532 - 23/11/07 02:50 AM

I would change both the front and rear to more conventional express sights. I really dislike the "fiber optic" sights. All I see is a fuzzy ball which gives me no definition.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: CptCurl]
      #89542 - 23/11/07 04:58 AM

I don't like the fibreoptics or beads.

I like a wide, deep, square notch rear + square-topped front post/Sourdough in a combination that allows light to be seen on either side of the thick blade/post front. Fast and accurate up close and repeatably accurate out to 100m which is as far as I want to shoot using iron sights. I HATE beads as I cannot keep zero consistent; light coming from different directions changes the glare on the round face of the bead and consequently the zero shifts as well.

I like a dull, flat-topped, square notch rear + a dull, square-topped front post.

Here are a few. I cut and file them to zero.





--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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hoppdoc
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #89546 - 23/11/07 06:07 AM

I like express sights but would like to see how a diamond front sight and an express rear sight with a white linear
"post"(vertically down from the V of the rear portion of the sight) would work.

I would hope such a set up could work faster than conventional express sights. Dunno if it would be faster or not--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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beleg2
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: hoppdoc]
      #89548 - 23/11/07 06:33 AM

93mouse,
Im far from an expert but I really hate the sight on my Kodiak .58"(round bead and rear), as soon as I can find a load that make a good composite group I will put some "square" sights.
I think the simplest thing you can do is to paint both sight black and try how it works for you.

Hope this helps.
Martin


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: beleg2]
      #89583 - 23/11/07 07:15 PM

Thank you guys - I plan to make a trip to the range this weekend and shoot all my rifles with open sights and try to compare them (don't have one with express tho) - now technicaly - so how much work is there for a gunsmith to change them - would he have to reblue...?

P.S. Will post pictures of sights and targets.


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89658 - 24/11/07 06:07 PM

On a Merkel, I'd opt for no 2 - change front/rear both. Pity that Merkel doesn't offer decent sights, but they're far from alone. I find square notch/post sights useless on a rifle.

A double is really at it's best with express sights. The problem with express sights today is that few of those on the new guns are any good. The rear should be a wide, shallow V, with the face sloped forward and a platinum center wire. The front should be a flat faced bead (I prefer platinum) that's not too large. I don't like anything over .080". Beads any larger than that are no easier to pick up quickly, and just cover more minutes of angle to no benefit.

Also, as well as having a flat face, the bead itself should lie flat on the face of the stem, and not be enlongated like the one in your second photograph. Enlongated beads like that one give me fits from glare and sidelights.

No, done professionally, such work should not require a re-black.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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DGR375
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #89659 - 24/11/07 06:34 PM

The Merkel 140 I've just ordered was ordered with express sights, among other options. It will be interesting to see how good they are.
As far as using express sights is concerned, practice and thoughtful analysis of the shot pay off. The express sights on my CZ550 Safari Magnum in 375 H&H are quite effective, giving a clear sight picture and minute of buffalo shots to 100 yds.

Edited by DGR375 (24/11/07 06:36 PM)


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hoppdoc
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89667 - 24/11/07 09:18 PM

I will echo what 400 nitroexpress has said -- if the bead of the front sight is too big the you limit your accuracy at distance by covering too much of your target.

The last picture with the large front bead would seem to limit the longer range accuracy of express sights.

Any pictures out there of the "best" express sights?

Could Champlin's modify/improve a Merlels express sights to a better configuration?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/11/07 09:19 PM)


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Kalunga
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: hoppdoc]
      #89671 - 24/11/07 11:30 PM

I believe that the double is rather a rifle for close distance combat so the sights should be designed accordingly. If You want to use it at longer ranges You have to make compromises. A big front sight is quicker to align but of course will be useless at longer ranges, just like a scope sight with high magnification will never satisfy at very close distances.
The fiber optic sights are also a compromise, the gather light so will be useful in low-light conditions but they are neither as sturdy nor as accurate as a finer brass bead.
So the sights should be choosen with the kind of Your hunting in mind.
Just MHO.

Kalunga


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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89679 - 25/11/07 01:07 AM

93:

You are really getting a broad spectrum of great answers!

Personal preference has a lot to do with it and I am betting you might find an answer for yourself that combines some of the recommendations here with others. It would be ideal if you could shoot a variety and thereby make up your mind as to what you like best.

For some additional ideas, check out what is used by competitive pistol shooters. If you want to know what works, look at what the good ones are using. The variety might astound you!

For sheer numbers, I guess the notch sights win the "speed shooting" game as some form of them is used in more speed shooting events than all other iron sights combined. And as for Dangerous Game, ask a Cop about a Drug Bust...

But there are many variations, with lines, dots, squares, etc added to enhance the sight picture. Competitive pistol demands both speed and accuracy and given the eye relief demands there are always new sights coming out to attempt to grant that edge over others. And a variety of combinations result.

One example is Rob Leatham who recommends Heinie pistol sights {basically, a wide notch + square post}. But the great old Ed McGivern, the Grandaddy of Modern Pistol Shooting used beads on his revolvers and performed incredible feats with them. Nobody I know of uses a setup exactly like Ed McGivern any more, but you can find pretty much everything in between the two extremes out there.

I suppose past use and comfort level have a lot to do with sighting. I carry a pistol and shoot one more or less daily and possibly that has flavored my preferences in rifle sights, too. Others might have grown up with something else and have a preference there. The options are endless and there is no "one answer" for all.

Good thing you are an accomplished gametracker!

This might be a long trail!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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ozhunter
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #89682 - 25/11/07 01:17 AM

My preference would be a Recknagel fine bead with the flip up Big white sight as per your picture.

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zimhunter
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: ozhunter]
      #89688 - 25/11/07 01:58 AM

My 141 in 8x57 has the same front sight with a conventional rear. I thought the top was not delineated enough so I painted the tope EDGE flat black and the definition improved to my eye anyway. Cheap and worth a try. I ended up with a Leupold 1.5x5 in MAK pivot mounts. My eyes just were not up to the long range (anything over 25 yards)with Irons. I wear trifocals and just can't see that well.

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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: zimhunter]
      #89798 - 26/11/07 07:39 PM

Thank you guys - took my .22 l.r., 7x57R combo (O/U) and Merkel to range - shot them at 60m:

- Yellow 7x57R - front fine 1,5 mm post, rear narrow U shape - 2 shot group
- Red .22 l.r. - front fine 1,5 mm post, rear wide U shape - 5 shot
- Blue Merkel 9,3 - 3+3 groups.



I have allready ordered new sights - 2 mm gold bed (will take in account about flat face - rear fixed blade leaned forward.

Guys thank you very much so far!

P.S. Gunsmith was asking me about the shape of the rear - he suggested express shallow V, golden inlay and U notch?


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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89812 - 27/11/07 01:14 AM

93:

My recommendation is to keep your target, then shoot on different days under radically different lighting conditions, especially under bright glaring sun AND dim, dark, overcast conditions as well. Compare zero's of the different targets using different sights and see what happens.

It was this procedure that made me give up on beads and go to "pistol sights", i.e. wide front, flat-topped posts and wide rear notches. Beads looked great in the gun room, and shot OK under some lighting conditions, but I just could not get them to repeat and since I hunt in sometimes very dim lighting and sometimes very bright, I needed something that worked in both circumstances.

I shoot a couple game targets for a test as well, and again, under varying lighting conditions {they are shot at 100 meters from sitting on the ground, no bench} the beads give me varying zero's depending on lighting. These targets have no precise aiming point and require the sights to be placed in a "void" of sorts, again demanding accuracy and repeatability.

Changing sights on a gun can be a job you won't want to repeat, and though this procedure might take some time it might help uncover some issues you might not see on one trip to the range. In the end I think it will help you nail down what you really like and save you trouble in the long run. You might find you like a bead/"V", or a wide post/notch, or something else...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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400NitroExpress
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89823 - 27/11/07 03:30 AM

Quote:

P.S. Gunsmith was asking me about the shape of the rear - he suggested express shallow V, golden inlay and U notch?




(.400 Nitro pounds head on keyboard) Why, oh why is it that European 'smiths simply cannot understand express sights?

Wide, shallow V, platinum inlaid center wire (gold and brass disappear in low light). No U notch, just shallow V. Platinum bead.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #89831 - 27/11/07 05:47 AM

- thanks 400 NE - I got the point - will pass it over to the smith - thank you.

BTW - Gentlemen does anybody have a picture of your preferable express rear sight?

P.S. That high POI of 7x57R doesn't realy matter - rifle was never sighted in with open sights - it is just the size of the two shot group I would like to see with each barrel from my Merkel (I bet rifle can do it without a sweat with different sights at 60m).


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Bill_Cooley
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89969 - 28/11/07 01:47 PM

93mouse,
The third front sight you posted is a standard bead with an optional large bead that folds up for low light use. The small bead looks like it is silver or white. I would like the gold bead if I bought one. The flip up big /low light bead is an interesting option but you will have to decide if it will be some thing you need. I like 400 Nitro’s pick for a rear sight.
Bill


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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #89975 - 28/11/07 05:14 PM

93:

Your original post involved extending the range of usefulness of your Merkel beyond 50 meters, i.e. beyond what the fuzzy sights allowed. That is also what caused me to search for a sighting option for my rifles. Anything worked OK at 30 or 40 yards, but on targets the size of a whitetail deer {or some of your game there I suspect} at over 50m, there must be an increased amount of precision.

For some samples of groups shot with my prefered sights, here are two 5 shot groups fired with a Husqvarna M648 8x57 while zeroing it. Both were fired at 100 meters from sitting on the ground, elbows rested on knees.

You can see the sights on this rifle in the picture posted earlier. It is the rifle on the left. Sights are a thickish blade front, notch rear. The rear notch is wide enough that lots of light is visible on either side of the front sight blade.

When there is a fine aiming mark as exists in the "Facing Deer" target, very fine groups can be made. But deer do not typically possess a very fine aiming mark as you know, so most of my shooting is done on targets not possessing such, as is found on the larger target which is the Norwegian reindeer target {annual hunting test target}. Rotating the target somewhat sideways will also help you test sights, as will shooting in bad light.

These targets give an idea of the results I get with the sights I prefer. The blade front can be painted any color you like. In the field I use black or I white out the front blade if lighting is very dim. These sights are very easy to pick up against a variety of backgrounds, and the flat top of both front and rear provides a sharp and repeatable aiming point. Speed in acquisition comes from making sure there is light showing on either side of the front sight. Too narrow a rear will provide an acceptable sight for the range, but a poor sight in the field.

The sights you show on your Merkel might be close to what I would like except I'd throw away that front sight and mate the rear with a thick front blade, though one that is narrow enough to allow lots of light on either side. It is hard to tell if that is possible from the picture. I would also blacken the dots as I do not like white dots in general, though for very coarse work I have used tritium "night sight" inserts on several of my pistols with ok results.





--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #89988 - 28/11/07 06:47 PM

9,3x57 thank you will keep your info in case the new ones dont perform as expected - however sights are allready ordered at Recknagel's (did the change from gold to silver). Will report.

Just one thing - shallow "V" - any tip of how steep the shanks of "V" should be - i.e. depth of the middle = front bead diameter or more/less?


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93mouse
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #90882 - 08/12/07 01:09 AM

Would



do?


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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #90889 - 08/12/07 01:53 AM

I'll bite...

Mated with a bead that fills the trough and for the game and at the close ranges typically shot with a rifle of that caliber; you know, big stuff like brontosaurus, tyrannosaurus rex and stegosaurus, all the way down to small game like elephant, rhino, buff and hippo, yes.

On a lighter caliber rifle intended for shooting even-yet-smaller game like chamois, roebuck or whitetail deer out to 100+ meters, no.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #90892 - 08/12/07 03:35 AM

93 Mouse - The sight pictured below your last post is just fine.
; I like a bit less angle personally, but it makes little difference as long as they aren't too steep. I like an 1/8" bead for normal good and low light conditions when hunting. I've done my best shooting at 100 meters with an 1/8" bead on a 30" barrel, so on shorter barrels, a 3/32" might be better.
; The 'ears' should be of a height that holding the bead level with the 'tops' gives another 100 to 150 yards of elevation. This way, one only needs the point blank sight, which is zero'd for 100 meters and holding the bead proud, even with the ears, gives 200 yards.
; I also like a very small knotch in the bottom of the V. The sight seems to roll down onto the top of that nick and just sit there.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: DarylS]
      #90894 - 08/12/07 04:44 AM

Personally, I favour a ghost ring rear sight.... Not very common on a double though.

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9.3x57
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Re: Merkel open sights [Re: DarylS]
      #90896 - 08/12/07 04:56 AM

I might add that if you are having a rifle built, and it will involve some large expense, it would be easy first to have a variety of sights installed on some other rifle you may already have. Even a .22. The point is, you could then play around with a variety of sights on a variety of targets and thereby establish what YOU prefer before you go to the expense of having a sight type installed on the custom gun. A mistake there might be costly to remedy.

The sight you have here does appear to be a bit deep for the classic "English Express" sight. A notch at the bottom is NOT part of the classic sight, but as Daryl says, works for him.

Whatever you do, don't do something because somebody insists it should be "just so". This may plague you in the long run. In the final analysis, the only person that matters is YOU, and what you like on your gun. It is easy to get sight blanks. In fact, I've seen plastic dummies available that can be filed or shaped to suit your needs, then you can have you gunmaker duplicate the final design you prefer.

If anybody has ever heard of or seen the classic English V/Bead used in precision rifle competition to 100 meters and beyond, please post it. I'd love to see it as I have never heard of or seen such a thing. Shooting the smaller game animals {size of the various "buck"} demands quite a bit of precision, precision I've never seen anyone accomplish routinely in the field with a V/Bead 100 or so steps. In clear weather under perfect conditions it certainly can be done, but under the muck and the mire of bad weather or changeable light, that sight is, in my opinion, a serious handicap.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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