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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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jc5
.300 member


Reged: 10/10/07
Posts: 162
Loc: West Coast, USA
Retinal Detachment
      #88961 - 14/11/07 07:28 PM

First, let me compliment you all on this great site. I discovered NitroExpress.com a couple months ago, and have enjoyed reading it. This is my first post.

I have read about the risk of retinal detachment with big bores, but until I read an old thread on this forum I thought it was just a myth, or an exaggerated way of saying "it kicks a lot"!

First question: are there any medical studies that have documented this? Anything I can link to?

Second question: What calibers are we talking about here? What is the threshold to cross before this becomes a concern? Is .375 H&H in the risk category or must one keep going higher before reaching the danger zone? I realize that in the absence of scientific studies, the answer will be imprecise and involve some estimation.

Thanks all.

--------------------
Researching Lee Speeds and all commercial Lee Enfields. If you have data to share or questions, please send me a PM.


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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: jc5]
      #88962 - 14/11/07 07:42 PM



Never had a problem myself with Retina detachment
and I shoot 375 - 500.

Broken Tooth and damn saw Muscles from
being forced backwards fast - ? Rotator Cuff ?.


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tophet1
.400 member


Reged: 15/09/07
Posts: 1873
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: jc5]
      #88963 - 14/11/07 07:50 PM

I'm a paramedic here in Australia, what is often called an EMT in the USA. I am not an optomologist.

In my opinion Retinal detachment is probably due more to age than any other factor. Any impact of any force can contribute to retinal detachment and what is safe in one individual may be damaging in someone else. It is my experience that usually a blow to the rear or front of the head or directly to the eyeball contributes to optic damage.

If you are worried about retinal detachment then you sould consult an optical specialist. I do not know how you would study this.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: 500Nitro]
      #88970 - 14/11/07 11:17 PM

Agree with 500Nitro--have shot most of my life--and also .375 to 577--been sore a few times in the shoulder but that is it----there is a lot of hype on the big bores--IMHO--yes I am sure it can happen.. but alot of people try to puff up the chest a bit because they shoot big bores..again IMHO--shoot and have fun...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: jc5]
      #88985 - 15/11/07 01:13 AM

This from a Wikipedia artical on Retinal Detachment:

"There are some known risk factors for retinal detachment. There are also many activities which at one time or another have been forbidden to those at risk of retinal detachment, with varying degrees of evidence supporting the restrictions.

Cataract surgery is a major cause, and can result in detachment even a long time after the operation. The risk is increased if there are complications during cataract surgery, but remains even in apparently uncomplicated surgery. The increasing rates of cataract surgery, and decreasing age at cataract surgery, inevitably lead to an increased incidence of retinal detachment.

Trauma is a less frequent cause. Activities which can cause direct trauma to the eye (boxing, kickboxing, karate, etc.) may cause a particular type of retinal tear called a retinal dialysis. This type of tear can be detected and treated before it develops into a retinal detachment. For this reason governing bodies in some of these sports require regular ophthalmic examination.

Individuals prone to retinal detachment due to a high level of myopia are encouraged to avoid activities where there is a risk of shock to the head or eyes, although without direct trauma to the eye the evidence base for this may be unconvincing.[5] Some doctors recommend avoiding activities that increase pressure in the eye, including diving, skydiving, again with little supporting evidence. According to one medical website, retinal detachment does not happen as a result of straining your eyes, bending or, heavy lifting.[14] Therefore, heavy weightlifting would appear to be fine. However, two recent scientific articles [15][16] have noted cases of retinal detachment or maculopathy due to weightlifting (specifically with the Valsalva method), and a third documented an increase in blood pressure in the eye during weightlifting [17].

Activities that involve sudden acceleration or deceleration also increase eye pressure and are discouraged by some doctors. These include bungee jumping[5] and may also include rollercoaster rides."



In my opinion, recoil energy is less of a factor than recoil velocity. Two rifles may have the same recoil energy, but one may have much higher recoil velocity, due primarily to insufficient weight in respect to the cartridge used. I think that recoil velocity in excess of 25 fps. is too great for the average shooter to accomodate to and may have dire consequences in the long run.


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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: xausa]
      #88988 - 15/11/07 02:37 AM

Interesting topic.

Without answering the questions, I might add that risk involving shooting of hard kickers seems to vary a lot between people. I wonder if a combination of age and recoil could increase risk of RD to unacceptable levels? How to predict such a thing? Who knows...Doc's?

Then again I wonder if more common degenerative age issues force many older fellows to quit shooting bigbores before retinal detachment becomes a common problem? Shoulder issues, back and neck degenerative conditions come to mind.

Many folks have problems shooting any guns that generate any backthrust at all. After I suffered a nerve disorder in my neck and shoulder I struggled for a long time with pistol and rifle shooting of any sort, then that improved and as a reminder of my mortality I injured a disk in my neck last summer doing ranch work. Glad I have a battery of light kickers!

Veering off a bit more, it has been said about a man's body involving physical fitness and contact sports "use it or lose it" but it is probably just as true to say "use it and lose it" for many people, particularly when a fellow has a job or hobby that puts him in harms way.

Nobody lives forever. Certainly physical behavior can and should be modified as age and circumstances take their toll and shooting doesn't mean the necessity to shoot cannons. A guy can lay around on his pasty butt and watch others play sports on the Peep-Hole Into Paradise or he can get involved till something goes amiss and then modify his behavior to remain a model of tenacity for the young. That's the way I see it. But I've had a heck of a model.

My Dad suffered a retinal detachment when my brother hit him in the eye with a racket ball. But the old guy was 63 at the time! He pretty much quit playing r-ball after that. Then the Old Man tripped and mashed his knee into a street curb while he was running 4 miles...when he was 65!! That ended his running career.

Dauntless, the old guy is 82 and still walking 5 miles per day and lifting weights 3x's per week. He's a great model of sticktuitiveness and never giving up.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: 9.3x57]
      #88990 - 15/11/07 03:36 AM

I believe that as it applies to shooting big bores, it can happen if your rifle is way too light. The recoil velocity is just too much for the body to handle, just ask Phil Shoemaker. He wrote up a story some time ago where he found a 50 bolt gun that was a bit light and he almost had that happen to him.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.


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hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: xausa]
      #89010 - 15/11/07 09:04 AM

I'm no opthalmologist but I would agree that alot energy delivered largely with the velocity component may cause enough sudden inertia to move the head violently thus creating enough shear forces to seperate the retina from its scleral attachment.

I would feel that the shooters technique,stance and muscle tone would affect the outcome somewhat as well. If the shooter resists the recoil with a firm stance logic suggests that would be better than just soaking up the recoil by being pushed violently backwards.A firm stance should reduce the effect of the inertia on the head, creating less effective cranial movement.

If you have had a cataract operation you are at risk because you have no structures in the anterior chamber of the eye to resist movement or forward interia of the vitreous pulling and tearing the retina should the head be moved violently backward.The lens is gone and even an artificial lense is not anchored like the natural lens of the eye.

So for those of you having had cataract surgery and still shooting the big bores-- beware!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (15/11/07 09:08 AM)


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BillfromOregon
.333 member


Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: hoppdoc]
      #89065 - 16/11/07 02:44 AM

I believe the gun writer and hunter John Wooters suffered from this condition and had to give up shooting any rifles with significant recoil; as a result he focused on shooting big-bore handguns.

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bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #89091 - 16/11/07 10:48 AM

I have been shooting big bores for 25 years and never had a problem. I shoot a 700 nitro, a 585 wells magnum, a 600 overkill and numerous 40 calibers. I have a 4 bore and a 700 AHR coming by Christmas. I do weigh 350 lbs, maybe that weight soaks up a lot of recoil, but never an eye problem.If the gun fits you and you know how to shoot big bores I would say you should be OK.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: Retinal Detachment [Re: bigdog]
      #89354 - 20/11/07 02:12 PM

I was in a motor bike crash in 2006 and now suffer from 4th crainal nerve palsy (double vision) when my head smaked the ground. It's not just detached Retinas.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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