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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Borrow money to take a Safari?
      #8874 - 12/02/04 05:54 PM

I was reading an article yesterday where the author states that they had borrowed money for a hunt in Zim. I started to wonder if this is normal or not. I can't imagine paying off a loan for a trip I've already taken years before.

Any thoughts?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: mickey]
      #8877 - 12/02/04 06:34 PM

A mate of mine was all for the "hunt now pay later" idea and reckoned that you only live once so make the most of it while you can.
I've been in the safari game long enough to see some of my older hunters are now not as active as they used to be.
I know they are glad that they made the most of the years when they enjoyed the best of health, even if they did have to borrow money to do it.
I guess for some, it is a good idea, just like borrowing the money to buy a nice double.


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mickey
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Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 4seventy]
      #8887 - 13/02/04 01:46 AM

4sevety

I've got nothing against borrowing money to buy something of a physical nature, like a nice rifle. Every month when you write out the check you can set it down beside you and know what you are paying for. You can sell it and recoup all the money if you need too or you can use it everyday and get your investment back in that manner, like a vehicle

I just don't see a major loan for a vacation. I'm not talking about 3-4 thousand in credit cards but 20-30 thousand in an expensive trip. If you can afford to pay off the loan why can't you just put the money in the bank ahead of time? At least until you get it down to where you only will have to pay for a year or less?

Did you ever think about how much we would spend on an item if we had to pay for everything in cold hard cash. A fistful of Green, or in your case a fistful of Green and Red and Blue and Orange. Real bills, not credit cards and not checks. I think that I would be living in a trailer and driving a 30 year old car or riding a bicycle.

I'm just curous as to how many people do it. Maybe it's me that is strange..... Naw, I'm okay, really, it's everybody else that is strange.... I am alright.... aren't I? Hello? Is anybody there? Helloo. ....Heloo.


--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: mickey]
      #8895 - 13/02/04 04:59 AM

Mick,
Kind of a different take on things for you. While I'm not going to Africa, this year, I do have an 'Africa' account that I use to invest money that I'm saving for that purpose. Right now, with interest rates as low as they are and with the stock market on the climb (at least some sectors), I believe it would be wiser for me to take out a loan than to take monies out of my stock portfolio (that I've invested just for this purpose).

I seriously don't plan on taking out a loan for the safari, but... if I was going today, it might not be a bad idea given the situation above.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DPhillips]
      #8904 - 13/02/04 08:11 AM

we always joked that my dad could buy a mecedes-benz on his VISA... then one year, he did! (actually, it was my mom's, and they did end up financing it locally, but they walked into the dealership and signed a Credit reciept for $43,000).

that was different though (0% and miles!) they paid it off inside the week. borrowing a bit here and there that you might take as much as a year to pay off, I can handle.

but if its going to take you longer than that, you need to spend less or wait... thats just really not prudent.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Dark_Helmet
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DPhillips]
      #8906 - 13/02/04 08:16 AM

DP, I (generally) agree with you, however, I would like to add the caveat that should you take out that loan, you need to monitor the "collateral" account closely and be sure that you weren't bearing any undue risk....


...thats just your friendly neighborhood investment professional talking.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
Posts: 819
Loc: Alaska
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
      #8908 - 13/02/04 08:21 AM

Oh yeah. We all have felt the sting of the markets whimiscal nature over the past couple of years. I tend to aggressively manage my stocks.

I would never do a loan for the entire safari, no matter how well I thought the market was doing.

Edited by DPhillips (13/02/04 08:22 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DPhillips]
      #8931 - 13/02/04 10:31 AM

I worked for 31 years for a Major airline, and my credit union got my business, for years, for hunting! I borrowed unsecured loans on a 18 mo period. The payments where payrole deductable, and when the loan was payed, the payments automaticlly went into my saveings, unless I stopped them, which I never did! I went on Safari every two years, and when I barrowed again I was six months ahead on the next loan, the money financed a little better safari each two years, or covered the rise in price. Of course the payments never ended, but I didn't miss the funds, because I was used to the money coming out of my salery before I got it!

I consider the borrowing of money for safari hunting, to make far more sense than spending it on a piece crap car every five years. The safari will be with me till I die, the junk automobile will be in the junk yard in ten years. I finance a car for five years, and drive it for ten years, the five years I'm not paying for a car represents a lot of money that can be added to my 18 mo loan for Safari hunting, rather than to buy a car!

Fellows poor people have to work the kinks out of this safari thing, or he will never do anything but dream, and read book about African hunting! I'd rather hunt Africa, than read about it! If that requires borrowing money, or not hunting Africa, then the payments will always be a part of my life! As Ray is fond of saying "some folks want things to happen, and some MAKE things happen", I agree!


Of course now that I'm retired things have changed somewhat! But I'm still makeing things happen, they just don't happen as often!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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DPhillips
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Reged: 09/10/03
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8932 - 13/02/04 10:32 AM

Very well said. You sir, are an inspiration!

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luv2safari
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Loc: United States
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8954 - 13/02/04 02:30 PM

DUGABOY1,

I couldn't have said it any better. I begged and borrowed money for my first safari and never looked back. It was the best investment in myself I have ever made. No other place on earth is like Africa...it was my boyhood dream, and my father's dream. He said almost every day of my life with him that we would go to Africa. It wasn't a matter of money for him at the time, but he just never managed to get there.

He is now crippled, and old, and dying...never having experienced what I have been absolutely privileged to have done, now many times...

Go on safari however you have to get there, and start planning your next one............

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: luv2safari]
      #8958 - 13/02/04 02:54 PM

I borrowed money to go on my first safari and my second. Also to buy my double rifle. Have piad off the safaris but not the double rifle.

I like Mac's idea.

There will always be competing pressure on funds, kids, schools, house renovations, wife's holiday plans. But debt is debt and it has to be paid



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DBBill
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Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8959 - 13/02/04 02:57 PM

There are 3 kind of people in the world.

#1 Those who make things happen!

#2 Those that watch things happen!

#3 Those who say "Did something happen?"

Go now while you are still fit enough to really enljoy it and remember you don't need to hunt buff or leopard or even sable to enjoy Africa....take the trip you can afford and then start saving for the big one later.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DBBill]
      #8970 - 13/02/04 05:21 PM

That's what I plan on doing. I'm going to finance a very small plainsgame hunt for the first time and just get my feet wet. When you have obligations and are on the hook, you have to get that out of the way first. I still may try to get to the PH school just for the helluva it.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #8991 - 14/02/04 04:11 AM

I have many clients that take out loans to go on Safari and then pay it off over a couple of years....

Back many moons ago, this poor young man made a big loan to go to africa, he and Mrs. Atkinson had a great time and came home to a $20,000 debt that REQUIRED that he become a booking agent to help pay it off, as his salary just could not cut that debt, well he did it in a couple of years and that started a great career that has lasted a heck of a long time. It was a turning point in my life and the best decision I ever made, hunger will do wonders for a struggling young cowboy who had to make it work.....

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9007 - 14/02/04 11:05 AM

Hey Ray, wuzzat after you decided you didn't want to be a FED anymore?

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9010 - 14/02/04 12:00 PM

In reply to:

.... Back many moons ago, this poor young man made a big loan to go to africa, he and Mrs. Atkinson had a great time......



Boy Ray, you must have been pissed that your wife went to Africa with some young man. Did you at least get to book the hunt?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: mickey]
      #9021 - 14/02/04 04:11 PM

Mickey,

What surprises me is that she came back at all...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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quigleysharps
.224 member


Reged: 02/02/04
Posts: 25
Loc: Arkansas City, Kansas
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: mickey]
      #9027 - 14/02/04 07:10 PM

I guess it takes all kinds.

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DBBill
.300 member


Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9053 - 15/02/04 02:57 AM

Ray...it couldn't have been when you were a "young man" because for $20K you could have bought many of the countries.

Back in the early '70's I almost made my 1st trip. I had been on my 1st western hunt for antelope/mule deer that was booked by Jack Atcheson...nice trophies and great trip with super folks. Jack was and still is a delight to talk to and we talked about a lot of things including my desire to hunt Africa ...some day. Sometime after I got back I got a call from Jack telling me he had an opening for 2 for an East African safari (Kenya and Tanzania or was it still Tanganyika back then) with one of the big companies...I could could pick up somone elses deposit.

The 28-day trip which included a full-bag of eveything was going for $100/day....yes that's right, $100/day plus very reasonable trophy fees. With picking up the previous deposit, the price for 2 hunters going 2x2 would have been $5600 minus $1000 or $2300 each plus airfare, trophy fees, etc. To give you youngsters some comparison prices, you could still buy a Cadillac for less than $5K and as a Captain in the USAF my monthly base salary was about $800 a month......and the 7-day antelope/mule deer hunt I went on cost me less than $1000 for the trip, licenses, tips, etc.

The kicker was he needed 2 hunters and he needed them to commit quickly....I couldn't find anyone....my Dad had no interest and everyone else I knew thought big-game hunting eneded with white-tail deer or else were strictly bird hunters.

This should have been my 1st trip to Africa but in realitiy my 1st trip didn't occur 25 years later...after I retired from the USAF and started a 2nd career, send two sons to college plus grad school for one and law school for the other, weddings, grandkids,etc, etc, etc

Like Jack Atcheson says "GO NOW". You aren't getting any younger and it won't get any cheaper.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DBBill]
      #9058 - 15/02/04 04:27 AM

Don't forget, gas was under 50 cents a gal. too.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DBBill
.300 member


Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
Loc: Southern California, USA
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #9082 - 15/02/04 10:38 AM

As I recall that was just about the time it took a jump to about 75 cents...talk about sticker shock.

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DBBill]
      #9085 - 15/02/04 11:26 AM

Remember the damn oil embargo? When it went over a buck everybody just shit a big one.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DBBill
.300 member


Reged: 25/05/03
Posts: 137
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #9096 - 15/02/04 02:36 PM

In New Jersey we had gas sales on "odd & even" days depending on your car license number.

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #9101 - 15/02/04 04:27 PM

It was probably when gas was 14 cents/gal and Ray meant $200.00...Better have more than the plumbing checked, Ray...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: luv2safari]
      #9146 - 16/02/04 08:57 AM

Actually no, I went berserk! shot everything that Africa had to offer and then some, scared hell out of me, but I figured it a one time shot, so like any Las Vegas gambling fool I went for the gold, and I have never slowed down, I figured if I wanted to hunt the world then I had to get into the business of hunting and I did..

That same women has been hanging around the house now for some 47 years, and I can't get rid of her, and to top it off she is getting a lot older and I just keep getting younger...

I suppose its too late to dump her and if I did then I would surely starve to death, have no one to interpet for me (I am near deaf), buy my clothes so I don't look like a vagrant; do my books; book my hunts; passify my clients (re: my gruffness and lack of tact) and run things in general...so now you know the reason why Atkinson Hunting has survived so many years....

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475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: atkinson6]
      #9150 - 16/02/04 09:08 AM

What's that line in the Ray Charles song, "It's cheaper to keep her." By the way, congratulations on having such a long marriage. Most women in today's city upbringing will come up with excuses with not making things work since they are always trying to hook the golden ring. I wonder if it's not too late for me to find a country girl.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #9153 - 16/02/04 09:48 AM

I'll trade mine off for a Searcy PH in 500/416...her credit cards go along with the package, though.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: luv2safari]
      #9184 - 16/02/04 10:19 PM

i have no choice but to bo0rrow money for my hunts.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa

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TerryBlauwkamp
.224 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 18
Loc: Michigan
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: Bigfive]
      #10580 - 02/03/04 07:47 AM

I've done it both ways.

10 years ago, I borrowed money just to go on a 7 day plains game trip to Zimbabwe.

Then as I paid off my ex-wife, sold the business, things got better so my new wife and I have been able to go longer each year.

Now my wife askes,"How much money do we need"? I reply,"It's only how much you got that counts". The more she can save up, the longer we are gone.

--------------------
MayI be half the man my dog thinks I am.

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DavidAk311
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Reged: 28/01/04
Posts: 47
Loc: Alaska
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: TerryBlauwkamp]
      #10590 - 02/03/04 08:29 AM

How can you get a loan for a hunt? I thought collateral was needed...wonder if I can just go in to my local bank and finance a 21 day hunt in Tanzania?

If so, my plans for '05 are going to change rapidly...

dave

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TerryBlauwkamp
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DavidAk311]
      #10591 - 02/03/04 08:36 AM

Yes, collertal is usually needed, but it is great if you have some and can then borrow against it.

But...... you better be darn sure that you can pay if back in the next year or so, or don't do it.

--------------------
MayI be half the man my dog thinks I am.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39267
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DavidAk311]
      #10603 - 02/03/04 10:18 AM

Some banks, credit unions etc will loan money for a holiday. Maybe not a 21 day hunt in Tanzania with the big four on quota though.

Try a seven or ten day buff or leopard hunt with plains game or just a plains game hunt. They might do that.

I have bank accounts with standing lines of credit which I use as required.


* * *


Financial logic says "Don't borrow money to go on safari. It will cost you more due to the interest cost, and overtime you will actually hunt less."


BUT I wonder if safari prices seeming to increase year after year, is this the case? . Certainly the trend is to increase year after year. By holding off does it actually cost you more overtime?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: TerryBlauwkamp]
      #10604 - 02/03/04 10:20 AM

In reply to:

Now my wife askes,"How much money do we need"? I reply,"It's only how much you got that counts". The more she can save up, the longer we are gone.



Man, what a wonderful wife!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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luv2safari
.400 member


Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: DavidAk311]
      #10626 - 02/03/04 12:21 PM

Dave 311,

Do what many of my clients do...plan a trip about 1 1/2 year in advance and put down your deposit to hold the dates, then pay in clumps of cash as you get them...Christmas bonus, tax refunds, etc...

2nd mortgage the house, find the wife a good street corner to work...whatever it takes...

All good fun aside, try the pay in clumps method...It works and softens the hit.

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: luv2safari]
      #10630 - 02/03/04 12:31 PM

Where there's a will, there's a way.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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NONE
.300 member


Reged: 15/12/03
Posts: 110
Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: 475Guy]
      #10634 - 02/03/04 12:58 PM

Hello Terry and welcome to the site. I spoke with you and sat next to you at dinner at the Georgia SCI convention. Good to see you here.

On the topic of course finically speaking borrowing money for a safari would be a bad idea. I am sure no finical adviser on the earth would suggest or condone this. The thing is life is very short and trust me it can change in the blink of a eye make it worth the while and live it to the fullest.

I would find it very hard to borrow money for this purpose but I guess if I didn't have the money it may change my prospective. It seams its pretty common and I do not hear any regrets from those who have.


James F. Nixon III

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TerryBlauwkamp
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: NitroX]
      #10673 - 02/03/04 11:16 PM

Yep, I sure have it made.

--------------------
MayI be half the man my dog thinks I am.

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TerryBlauwkamp
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Re: Borrow money to take a Safari? [Re: TerryBlauwkamp]
      #10677 - 02/03/04 11:22 PM

James;

Thanks for the welcome, I'm having a fine time here. You are right, no advisor would ever "recommomend" borrowing $ for a hunt, but then very few $ advisors hunt either.

Mine would not know which end of the gun to shoot himself with, but then I have no idea how he comes up with some of the ideas he comes up with about $ either. To each his own.

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MayI be half the man my dog thinks I am.

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