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Hunting >> Hunting in Australia, NZ & the South Pacific
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Nakihunter
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Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo!
      #88425 - 07/11/07 03:54 PM

I have put 3 links below which have some photos of the Wild Buffalo. This animal is not the same as the ferral buffalo found in Australia. The Wild buffalo is over 6 feet tall at the shoulder & weighs up to 1200 kgs. It is actually a lean looking animal with long legs. It is twice as big as the domestic or ferral buffalo.

In temperament they are extreamly volatile & agressive. Every year game rangers & locals are killed by wild buffalo in the national parks of Assam state in Eastern India. They are known to charge tame riding elephants with tourists riding the elphants!! Tigers will rarely take a calf. They are known to take rhino calves more often than buffalo calves.

It is difficult to compare them with the African buffalo as there are so few of them left. They are probably equally dangerous but the Asian wild buffalo is a swamp dwelling animal & is likely to give you a bit more time. In terms of agression & temperament I doubt if we could tell the difference.

http://www.treknature.com/gallery/Asia/India/photo96425.htm ; http://www.flickr.com/photos/yathin/878204812/in/set-72157600968389681/ ;
http://www.wildlifeindia.co.uk/national-parks-india/kaziranga-national-park.html ;

My favourite of the wild cattle is the giant Gaur - the Indian "bison". This is the most handsome of wild cattle. Standing over 6 feet & 1200 kgs, the jet black bulls have the white stocking & rippling muscles. I have seen them many, many times and never tire of it! They are not reputed to be particularly agressive though a cow will defend its calf with her life.

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88426 - 07/11/07 04:10 PM

Sorry Pal you are wrong, wrong, wrong. and the links you provide arent exactly scientific based material. The truth in the matter is that there is variation in the Asiatic buffalo all over Asia, Australia and the world. Just because one country calls a particular strain "domestic" doesnt mean that they are the same as all domestic or domesticated buffalo. Some strains in south east asia are exactly the same as the wild buffalo that live next door in the jungle and wild buffalo are certainly not confined to India.

If you are trying to tell me that this bull is 600kg or less I will be a monkey's uncle!!



They are ALL the same species and genotype which means that you cant really tell any difference genetically.

The buffalo that were bought to Australia seem to have come from a few different parent sources (although no one can say for sure their exact origin) given the range of horn types we see here. Were they domesticated? Surely they were to be bought here but they quickly reverted to their wild type, whatever that may have been.

Cheers
Matt

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Edited by Matt_Graham (07/11/07 04:16 PM)

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Nakihunter
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88438 - 07/11/07 09:18 PM

Matt, You may be right in terms of genetic make up, just as the domestic pig is the same as the feral pig or the wild pig of Asia & Europe. But the wild boar is still a different animal. The feral pig is still a great game animal & trophy.

I am not saying that the Aussie buffalo is any less worthy a game or trophy animal. I am just saying that the wild buffalo is over 6 feet tall & kills people in some sanctuaries. In the state of Assam (where I managed a Tea Plantation in the 80's), the domestic buffalo sometime breed with wild bulls. The off spring are temperamentally impossible to tame & end up with the butcher before they are 2 years old. My comments were only in relation to the comparison with the African Buffalo.

The links are just for reference & pictures. The scientific material is available from the Bombay Natural History Society http://www.bnhs.org/ & other sources.

I hope to hunt the Aussie buffalo one day I would be proud to take a bull like yours! cheers

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88449 - 08/11/07 12:40 AM

So where did the 'domestic' buffalo in India come from? What stock?

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gryphon
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88470 - 08/11/07 07:07 AM

http://www.bnhs.org/
Nakihunter its all very well sending a link but after a fruitless search i cant find buffalo stuff included,can you direct me to the correct page re your posts on buffalo,thank you.

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Nakihunter
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: gryphon]
      #88481 - 08/11/07 09:01 AM

I am new to this amazing site & I'm very enthusiasm - feel like I'm 20 again! So please excuse my "licence".

To answer the questions

The Asiatic domestic buffalo would have been domesticated from the wild ones many centuries ago - just like pigs, donkeys, horses etc. There are many local "breeds" of deomestic buffalo - some of them have tight curled horns which look more like an inverted Argali horn!

The BNHS site I refered to is just for scientific research source. Check this IUCN site http://www.iucnredlist.org/search/details.php/3129/all. The IUCN (International Union for concervation of Nature) info is depressing when they say that the true 100% pure wild buffalo might be extince & the current populations might be cross breeds!

I just googled "India+Wild Buffalo" & found this http://www.google.co.nz/search?hl=en&...earch&meta=

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88514 - 09/11/07 12:04 AM

None of the scientific info I have found on the net about Asiatic buffalo is very comprehensive - most often very vague and usually full of errors. None of this is any different. IUCN is one of the worst for this - they rarely seem to keep their info up to date.... and they are meant to be the authority...



I have never seen a photo of a buffalo from India that didnt look just like every other Asiatic strain buffalo but with varying horn shapes. Id like to see a photo of one of those 'domestic' buffalo.

Are you talking about one of these?? This is the milking strain that was bought to Europe on then to the Americas from (some part of) Asia.
Matt




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Edited by Matt_Graham (09/11/07 12:09 AM)

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Nakihunter
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88552 - 09/11/07 09:51 AM

Yes Matt, that is the milking strain commonly found in Western India and a few other regions. I understand that a Texas heard has been established with animals from the Phillipines (John Barsness of Rifle & Handloader magazine & Charlie Sisk the rifle maker hunted them a few years ago).

The scientific data is probably slim because the wild buffalo started declining even in the early 1900's - flood plains & marshes were the first areas to be encroached upon by villagers for cultivation. Loss of habitat - same old story. According to IUCN the term "Bubalus Bubalis" was coined for the domestic buffalo & that some authorities use the name "arnee" for the the wild species.

BTW - Can I send you a PM about hunting buffalo in OZ? Cheers
Ashok

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88557 - 09/11/07 10:59 AM

No I mean there is little scientific data on all Bubalus bubalis . The 'arnee' you mention is a good example because some places call it Bubalus arnee which is totally incorrect as it is not a separate species but rather Bubalus bubalis arnee - a subspecies.

Modern-day taxonomy is very difficult to follow anyhow - with different sub-species being given separate species status, even though they freely interbreed.

I cant follow it??

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88559 - 09/11/07 11:06 AM

Quote:

According to IUCN the term "Bubalus Bubalis" was coined for the domestic buffalo & that some authorities use the name "arnee" for the the wild species.

BTW - Can I send you a PM about hunting buffalo in OZ? Cheers
Ashok



Yes and that is an example of how they are wrong because Bubalus bubalis is the sc. name for all Asiatic buffalo...

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Nakihunter
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88567 - 09/11/07 01:24 PM

Matt How do you put the photo on the post? So far I have only been able to put it on a library & post the lnks.

What about the Buff hunting?

Cheers

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Marrakai
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88656 - 10/11/07 01:13 PM

Naki:
Just put a [img] hard-up against the start of the URL, like this:

[img]http://www.photosite.com.....

Then at the end, put a [/img] like so:

...photosite.com/nakisphotos/bigbull.jpg[/img]

Make sure there are no spaces between the square brackets and the actual URL address.

This is all explained in the NE.com FAQ pages, here:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/faq.php?Cat=0#image

Hope this helps.


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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Marrakai]
      #88669 - 10/11/07 04:40 PM

Code:
 [image]http://www.huntinginargentina.com.ar/imagen/casa_mayor/image020.jpg[/image]


The code Matt used.

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: NitroX]
      #88670 - 10/11/07 04:58 PM


(sorry about the size of the photo, I will copy it, reduce it and reload it soon)

This beast looks like a cow to me.

Matt, we saw a buffalo cow a bit like this in 2004, very long thin horns, longer than the males we saw.




These are very much like Aussie water buffalo from the photo.




Again I could post this photo and no one would not know it was not an Australian water buff.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: NitroX]
      #88672 - 10/11/07 05:12 PM

I've split the previous thread in two. One celebrating Tony's daughter's success on a water buff hunt and this discussion thread.

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: NitroX]
      #88673 - 10/11/07 05:14 PM

PS

Some British writers in colonial days write of hunting "bison" and "buffalo" as two different species.

One is obviously gaur and the other wild water buffalo, though which is "bison", I guess is gaur!?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: NitroX]
      #88674 - 10/11/07 05:43 PM

Another photo - sent to me by Nakihunter of an Indian Water Buffalo.



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Nakihunter
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: NitroX]
      #88690 - 11/11/07 08:14 AM

Thanks John. The photos often look like the Aussie buffalo. The first two & the last one are typical in that they are leaner animals & longer legged / rangy looking. I have seen hybrids in Assam which were about 5ft 10 at the shoulder & very agressive. The big wild bulls can go 6 ft 4 in or more at the shoulder! I have seen Gaur (Bison) that size & they are awe inspiring! I just love wathcing a heard of Bison - the jet black shiny coat of a mature bull with rippling muscles & sharp shoulder ridge is stunning. The calves are so much like what I see in my neighbours' paddocks!

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Nakihunter]
      #88699 - 11/11/07 10:50 AM

They dont look any different to our buffalo (except the horn shape is slightly different). I dont think all the wild buffalo from Assam all have that upwards sweeping horn shape???

Marrakai should be able to shed more light on this - he has got the book about the old hunting records from Assam (cant rember the name) and it has photos in it that show different horn shapes of the wild buffalo there (when there were heaps of them).

Cheers Matt

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DDouble
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88742 - 12/11/07 05:16 AM


I hunt buffalo in Brazil and we have three "different" buffalo.

I mean different because of "horn types".

The curly horns are from the breed called MURRAH

The horns that start downwards and then curl in the botton are the JAFARABADI.

The ones in Australia and in some places of Brazil (like tha famous Marajo Island in the Amazon first hunted by Fred Bear the bowhunter) are called here the CARABAO. It seems the Carabaos that came to Brazil were from the Philipines (according to some amazon early ranchers books and records).

All three types were certainly tamed, domesticated buffalo.

My GUESS is that both the Murrah and Jaffarabadi were selected for their milk production and are further down the domestication process.

The Carabao are more prone to becoming wilder. However, being mostly a bowhunter, and hunting them in the tick jungles here, I have been attacked by all of them. I have fond memmories of many well placed trees...

Cheers, Dante

PS - my .470 Chapuis arrived and it is a great looking rifle. Shot it last weekend and it is great. Next hunt will be quite a change from my recurve bow with no sights.

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Ddouble

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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: DDouble]
      #88835 - 13/11/07 01:07 AM

Cheers Dante - thanks for the information. I think Capstick wrote about the buffalo on Marajo Island??

Do some of the Carabaos have the wide-sweeping horns like our ones??

Yes I think our buffalo most likely came from the mainland of South East Asia - I would like to find out for sure but I am not sure if this is possible...

Cheers
Matt Graham

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Marrakai
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #88846 - 13/11/07 01:42 AM

Matt:
Not positive about the earliest ones (Port Wellington 1828 and Victoria Settlement 1838), but many of the later animals came from Timor, probably Kupang. Certainly, the schooner Beatrice brought several loads back from Timor to Escape Cliffs between 1864 and 1866.

Hide shooting commenced on the Adelaide River in 1885 according to Ernestine Hill.

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Marrakai
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Matt_Graham
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Marrakai]
      #88876 - 13/11/07 08:53 AM

Hi Marrakai

Yes, thanks I was aware of the shipment from Timor. They are not native to the island though are they?? What about the rest of the Indonesian archepelago? My guess is that all of the buffalo on the mainland (Laos, Thailand, Vietnam etc) right down through the islands are all basically the same types and they were no doubt carried about all through the region by the Dutch, Portugese and British and spread to island they weren't already - Australia included.

So the buffalo that came to Australia from Timor could have been traded from anywhere...

What do you think?

Once again I dont think any agency has done a definitive study on them - which is a great shame....

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DDouble
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: Matt_Graham]
      #89086 - 16/11/07 08:27 AM

Cheers Matt,

Last week a friend of mine shot a good Carabao similar to a good Australian bull, but said he saw a huge Carabao bull. They pursued the bull into the marshes on horseback, but it caught a peao (cowboy) and killed its horse. So big was the bull that we are trying to find a date to go back in december.

The earliest Marajo island buffalo population (and the wildest one) are Carabao's. They are called the "rosilho" buffalo, bacause some of them are of a pinkish color.

There is a paper about the genetic makeup of buffalo populations using DNA analysis. It suggests that there are different lines of buffalo that were domesticated. In other words, not all tamed buffalo came from one domestication event.

Dante

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Ddouble

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: Which is tougher the Asiatic or cape buffalo! [Re: DDouble]
      #89097 - 16/11/07 12:39 PM

Interesting comments.
I've seen the odd pinkish colored buff during my travels in the NT and have also seen ivory colored horns on several buff.
Al

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