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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Mauser Discussion Forum
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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
8x75RS revisited
      #83459 - 03/08/07 06:02 AM

I found a thread on this from 2004/2005:
Thread

I hope our Central European friends might be able to help me on this.
Bear with me, please, this is a long post.

I've been looking at a suitable calibre for a lever action rifle which does not have a tubular magazine, in practice the Win m/1895.
For my hunting purposes .338 or 8mm (.323) would be ideal as the game is rather big, mainly elk.
I'm unwilling to go below the .30 calibre but also reluctant to go beyond the 9,3mm (.366) as I'm recoil shy. In bolt action, I've been happy shooting 9,3x62 and my Winchester is chambered for 8,2x53R, i.e. a necked up 7,62x53R. I shoot 200grs (13g) Sako Hammerhead ammo.
(Note to American readers: I live in Europe so 8mm bullet availabiliy is no problem.)

In looking at alternatives I came across the 8x65RS but no rifles chambered for it. Rather the European singles, doubles and drillings come in 8x75RS.
Question: why?
The 65 seems very potent to me, and the 75 is awfully long. OK, in a break-open action it matters little, but still.
Also, where the devil do you find this ammo? Even RWS doesn't load it.

My other alternative has been the 8x57IRS but it has it's limitations. Sako loads the 8,2x53R stronger, and RWS's load for the IRS is the same as Sako's so the IRS does not grow very much upwards.
The 65 and 75 would: they'd have a flatter trajectory and/or shoot heavier bullets such as 220grs or 250grs well suited for heavy game and short ranges.
My concern is that they might not fit into the Win action. The .30-06's max. lenght is 84.8mm and that of .405 Win is 80.6mm whereas the 75's max lenght is 96mm. Same problem with the 9,3x74R: max. length is 94.5mm.

As to "why not the 9,3x74R, then?": no reason at all! But on that note, any other ideas besides the obvious .30R Blaser? I'm not keen to go down to 7mm.
If we were to wildcat, then to neck up the Blaser to .338 would be interesting, indeed...

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #83483 - 03/08/07 11:22 AM

Necked down .450 marlin or 444 Marlin, ,.50 alaskan ? Perhaps.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Bramble]
      #83491 - 03/08/07 12:49 PM

Schaukis:

I'm thinking the .338-06 is the answer. A 75mm case will not fit into the 95 action I don't believe. You might even be able to have the original '06 M95 barrel rebored.

I think you will have some trouble getting much better than .30-06 performance out of the 95 action. Case stretching will probably limit case life dramatically.

Where are you getting a 95 in UK? Original Winchester or Browning reproduction?

Browning made some long action BLR's. I'm not sure if they still do. The original was heavy, but later models had aluminium receivers. They handled heavy magnum catridges like the .300 Win Mag.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #83492 - 03/08/07 04:33 PM

You might think about this one (sorry, text in German):
http://www.jww.de/r30/vc_content/bilder/firma445/Archiv-2005/028_029_wiederladen_jww_04_0405.pdf

This is basically a rimmed .338-06 Improved.
Moderately popular in Germany. It is actually chambered by some of the German arms manufacturers.
No ammunition from the big ammo companies, but available from some small commercial reloaders.

Fuhrmann

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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: fuhrmann]
      #83496 - 03/08/07 10:17 PM

I knew I hit the right address here!
Thank you, guys.

Some comments on the above:

Bramble:
You're thinking along my lines here, but to start necking down = wildcat and I'm reluctant to go down that route. Regrettably, the magnificent .50 Alaskan does not have a very flat trajectory at all which makes it less interesting for me.

9Three:
I could not agree with your views more! The problem here is, however, that there have been extraction problems in the '95 with cases that have no rim, in practice .30-06 and .243. Therefore, the .338-06 is not an any better solution.
Was it that I were looking for a bolt-action, make no mistake: that'd be my choice especially now that it's not a wildcat anymore (unless I went for the 8x68S, of course!).
I also had a look at the Brownings, but frankly I don't like their looks. Very good guns, though, well proven and they can be scoped as well so this is just a matter of personal liking.
A '95 is easily obtainable in my native Finland, in fact, as there are plenty of the old Czar's rifles out and about; or indeed reproduction @ $$ but that's not my main concern in looking at a more or less perfect dream rifle, which I'm sure you all agree on!
Or, indeed, to rebarrel my current one which I wouldn't like to do as it's been in the family for a long time.

Fuhrmann:
Thank you, thank you! I knew the answer is lying in Germany!
No probs with the text, I speak some German.
True enough, there would be a slight problem with the ammo, but handloading is always a viable option, and as indicated in the article 7x65R cases can be used. In Europe, 7x65R is easy to come by.
Quickly looking at the data it seems to be very close to the .30-06, indeed, making it just about perfect with plenty power but manageable recoil. Max. length 84mm means it fits the '95's action.
Also there is a magnificent selection of .338 bullets, as can be seen in the article, too.

Hm, the problem is that with such a perfect solution at hand I have little choice but to start making the dream come true. $$ and €€... (Or even ££ as i live in England, now.)

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #83499 - 03/08/07 11:00 PM

Quote:

The problem here is, however, that there have been extraction problems in the '95 with cases that have no rim, in practice .30-06 and .243. Therefore, the .338-06 is not an any better solution.



I'm curious about this statement. I've never heard of any extraction problems with .30-06 95's {other than typical lack of primary extraction which is common to all 95's and most levers in-general}. Are you sure the problem guns you are referring to weren't modified 7.62x53R ex-Russky guns? I'm not disputing with you here, just curious about your experience.

I was in the retail business about the time the long-action BLR hit the market. I agree with you. It is a club. I have to confess tho, the thing did make me really wonder about rebarreling one of the .300's to .458. As I understand it, some fellows have done just that to resurrect the .450 Alaskan concept in a modern rifle. Essentially the BLR is a bolt action with a lever, i.e. front locking lugs and thus does not have the action stretch issues that plague heavily loaded 95's. Some of the old time writers suggested that the 95 is a weaker action than the 1886/71, and I think I agree with that.

The aluminum actioned BLR's certainly must cure the deadweight problem, but I can only guess what the action would look like after some time in the field. I have never been a fan of aluminum on a gun.

I guess you could always neck up the .30 Blaser or use as-is. I believe that one is a .30-06 length cartridge.

By the way, I wondered if you were from Suomi. Years ago I used to correspond with the late PT Kekkonen and he mentioned the 95 was not only common in Suomi, but also years ago was commonly modified and sporterized for hunting hirvi, and rebarreled after the law change {early 50's if I remember correctly} requiring the 8,2x53R minimum. That's part of the reason I am wondering if the guns with extraction problems you mention were 7.62x53R rifles rebarreled to .30-06. The old {and dangerous} Bannerman Mosin-Nagant conversions {7.62 Russian to .30-06} kept the same extractor, relying on the "throw" of the spring to provide adequate grip on the .30-06 case. This was one of many reasons these conversions were poor and shouldn't be fired.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: 9.3x57]
      #83505 - 03/08/07 11:33 PM

Quote:

The problem here is, however, that there have been extraction problems in the '95 with cases that have no rim, in practice .30-06 and .243. Therefore, the .338-06 is not an any better solution.
I'm curious about this statement. I've never heard of any extraction problems with .30-06 95's {other than typical lack of primary extraction which is common to all 95's and most levers in-general}. Are you sure the problem guns you are referring to weren't modified 7.62x53R ex-Russky guns? I'm not disputing with you here, just curious about your experience.



Frankly, I have not personal experience thereof.
It is my understanding that this was the case specifically with the newer factory-made .30-06s. I have read it from several sources and therefore do not doubt it. Or at least until someone undisputedly proves that there was no problem, I'd be hesitant to take that route.
In my experience, the rebarreld ones have always been made to shoot rimmed ammo and therefore i have not come across this problem specifically (see below)

Quote:

The aluminum actioned BLR's certainly must cure the deadweight problem, but I can only guess what the action would look like after some time in the field. I have never been a fan of aluminum on a gun.



Agree.
Incidentally, the Sako Finnwolf and Winchester m/ '91 (?) were the same, i.e. essentially a bolt used with a lever, and they worked perfectly with rimless ammo, as did the Savage 99.

Quote:

By the way, I wondered if you were from Suomi. Years ago I used to correspond with the late PT Kekkonen and he mentioned the 95 was not only common in Suomi, but also years ago was commonly modified and sporterized for hunting hirvi, and rebarreled after the law change {early 50's if I remember correctly} requiring the 8,2x53R minimum. That's part of the reason I am wondering if the guns with extraction problems you mention were 7.62x53R rifles rebarreled to .30-06. The old {and dangerous} Bannerman Mosin-Nagant conversions {7.62 Russian to .30-06} kept the same extractor, relying on the "throw" of the spring to provide adequate grip on the .30-06 case. This was one of many reasons these conversions were poor and shouldn't be fired.



Why, yes, I am! Nice to hear you have acquainted yourself with our far little country.
Your friend Kekkonen's statement was precisely right: the old Russian Winchesters were rechambered for the 8,2 or 9,3 due to the 1950s law prohibiting the use of a military cartridge for hunting, and also in the 50s requiring for elk (hirvi) hunting a bullet diameter of more than 8mm. Given that some 300,000 rifles were supplied to Russia you understand them still not being in short supply.
But as I said, I have not came across any modified for other than rimmed ammo. Also, to drill the gun up to 8,2x53R was apparently the easiest way as then the chamber is the same: for e.g. the .30-06 the cartridge is longer but the diameter of the case and the base of the case are a lot smaller, so the easiest option then was to just drill the hole bigger.
Today, the old 8,2 is dying away not all gun shops having the ammo and prices going up, and this is part of the reason for my inquiry.
Also, a lot of the Mosin-Nagants or like (the Finnish "Ukko-Pekka") were also commonly modified to take the 8,2, and my uncle used one until recently and in his hunting party there still is one other in use. Also a late friend of mine used his drilled 8,2 until his death, so it certainly gets the job done.
You'll probably not believe this but this summer I shot a three shot group with factory ammo of approx. 40mm @ 100 meters, standing up supporting the rifle against a support pillar. This with open sights! The bloody thing is accurate, powerful and reliable enough not to justify the acquisition of a new rifle - plus me and my father like it so much and we both are very comfortable shooting it. In these days of glassfibre stocks, stainless barrels and scope sights it always draws positive attention and doubtful looks when out hunting. We let the results speak for themselves.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #83508 - 03/08/07 11:47 PM

Interesting about the modern Brownings. I have no experience with them so I wasn't aware of that, only the originals which aren't too uncommon around here {a friend has 5 or 6 of them in calibers ranging from .303 to .30-40, .30-06 and .38-72, etc. but no 7.62x53R as that chambering, though it was the most common 95 chambering, is very uncommon in the USA!!

I think you are referring to the Winchester 88?

And yes, your Pystykorva and Ukko-Pekka are VERY accurate rifles. I used to own a fairly extensive collection of them. I sold them all some years ago, but they were indeed very finely built and accurate rifles. I shot a bear with one {in military configuration}. Accurate indeed, but heavy! I vowed never to chase bear hounds up and down the mountains while carrying one again! You Finns are better men than me!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #83552 - 05/08/07 05:19 AM

Years ago I had a rifle built on a 1938 Waffenfabrik Mauser 98 action using the .284 Winchester cartridge necked up to .400 (.410") to duplicate the .400 Whelen/.405 Winchester ballistics in a rimless cartridge suitable for a short action which had enough shoulder to properly headspace. It worked beautifully, and I have since considered rebarrelling a Winchester 88 in the same caliber, to produce a really powerful and versatile lever action rifle. The project is still on the back burner, but I have however acquired a Model 88 with the requisite magazines in .284.

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Schauckis
.300 member


Reged: 17/07/07
Posts: 151
Loc: Finland
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: xausa]
      #83555 - 05/08/07 05:52 AM

An interesting idea, indeed.
I also like the concept of shorter action. Especially when talkin bolt actions a rifle with a short action is remarkably nimble to handle. Bell actually described it best in his book when talkin about his .275 Rigby. He is so enthusiastic about it, it's actually amusing. But having compared, say, a Sako .30-06 and .308 I definitely agree.
And why wouldn't this apply to a lever action, as well: makes the entire rifle shorter + lighter = joy to handle.

--------------------
A.k.a. Bwana One-Shot

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: 8x75RS revisited [Re: Schauckis]
      #87271 - 17/10/07 06:10 AM

I noticed that no one has evidently responded to your question about 8X65RS ammunition. I have recently had a Krieghoff drilling in caliber 16/16/7X65R rebored to 8mm and rechambered to 8X65RS. Although I have had the opportunity to test fire the gun with the gunsmith, I still have not received it from Germany, but I am looking forward to testing it in the hunting field soon. I intend to load my own ammunition, using cases formed from 7X65R brass, which may end up being a millimeter short after expanding, but otherwise of no consequence.

Actually, you could use the same brass to form a sort of rimmed .35 Whelen, which would give you a choice of a number of excellant bullets. You could use conventional .35 Whelen reloading dies and the gunsmith could use a conventional .35 Whelen chambering reamer. The only additional procedure involved would be to cut a recess for the rim in the breech end of the barrel. I have a Winchester single shot rifle which I had barrelled many years ago to a rimmed version of the .250-3000 Savage cartridge, using 8X57RS brass as the basis for the case. It functions flawlessly, as might be expected.

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