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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Muzzleloaders & Blackpowder

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Modern designs
#87142 - 15/10/07 05:57 AM

Hello Folks,
Are any of you shooting modern muzzle-loading rifles? I use traditional caplock and flintlock rifles during the special muzzleloading season, but switch to a modern, custom-made smokeless powder rifle for the "regular gun" season. My reason is simple pragmatism; one of my best hunting areas is in a county that does not allow centerfire rifles. My rifle runs 45 cal, 300 gr jacketed bullets at 2700 fps, muzzle velocity. It gives me centerfire performance, and is legal in the restrictive county. I also use various centerfire rifles in other counties.
Anyway, if there is enough interest, I would like to propose a discussion of these interesting rifles. What say?

Take care, Tom

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Plains99
.300 member

Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Tatume]
#87191 - 15/10/07 11:35 PM

A 300 grain jacketed bullet at 2700 fps causes me to wonder if your bullet performs well at close range. If you are using standard pistol grade bullets in sabots they were never intended for that velocity. You are setting yourself up for the catastrophic bullet failures of the early Weatherbys before bullet technology caught up with Weatherby velocities. Personally, this sort of thing doesn't interest me. I use fairly standard inlines for some hunting and am satisfied with 1350 to 1900 fps depending on the load and powder charge. I took a .50 caliber inline to South Africa and shot 120 grains of Pyrodex RS and a 375 grain soft lead bullet and enjoyed excellent performance out to 145 yards on several sizes of plains game. The other point is that even though you are meeting the letter of the law is you muzzleloader safe in the county you mention? High population concentrations make me nervous. I hunt one area of my state with a 12 gauge slug gun because of the proximity of houses and semi-rural farmsteads and while my effective range is only about 100 yards, I manage to take a deer every season I hunt up there.
The upshot of all this is whether you consider what you are doing as safe or really necessary. Do you really need a muzzleloader that generates 2700 fps velocities?

Edited by Plains99 (15/10/07 11:37 PM)

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Plains99]
#87206 - 16/10/07 01:52 AM

Dear Plains99,

To take your second question first, the area where I hunt is not densely populated. The shots I take are downhill or into a hillside, and pose no risk. The county just has too many politicians.

Frequently I'm posed with 200-yard shots, and the rifle I'm using has a 200-yard point blank range. When I can get closer I do, but it's not always possible. While I have killed deer at 200 yards with my H&R UltraSlug 12 ga rifle using Federal 2 3/4" Premium slugs with Barnes bullets, 150 yards is the practical limit for that gun. Some time ago I stopped taking longer shots with it, when I realized that paper ballistics notwithstanding, it was not up to the job. This was my motivation for having the modern muzzleloader built. (Interestingly, the Barnes .500" 325 gr bullet performs perfectly at 200 yards, and only at this range can one be recovered from a deer.)

The Barnes 300 gr .458 X-bullet will not come apart at 2700 fps, and it performs very well at lower speeds. Barnes says it needs 1800 fps to expand reliably, but the last one I used was probably slower than that at impact, and made a fist-sized exit hole. Also, the Sierra 300 gr .4515" pistol bullet is very "hard" and holds together well.

Accuracy of my rifle is sub-MOA, and it is very comfortable to shoot. Working with cutting-edge technology is very satisfying, as much so as working with 1800s technology; just different.

Take care, Tom

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Plains99
.300 member

Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Tatume]
#87211 - 16/10/07 02:32 AM

A Barnes bullet is probably your very best choice for those velocities. New Easy-Load sabots have taken the Barnes bullet into a very practical hunting projectile. In the old days they were bearcats to load in some rifles. Sounds to me like you've thought this out and have a quite workable solution. I agree that I'd much rather be shooting a high performance muzzleloader than a slug gun if the surrounding area is safe for it and you have shots beyond 150 yards. I've looked at a nice used Savage at my local gun dealer that is priced no higher than conventional inlines and considered it but I really don't need another muzzleloader. Right now I'm using a Knight Revolution loaded with 260 grain Hydro-cons and two Triple 7 Magnum pellets... open sights only for the season. I imagine I'm pretty close to 2,000 fps and the rifle is quite accurate... but I'm limiting my shot attempts to 150 yards with it.

Edited by Plains99 (16/10/07 11:48 PM)

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mehulkamdar
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.

Re: Modern designs [Re: Tatume]
#87285 - 17/10/07 10:50 AM

Tom,

While I have hunted with a T-C Percussion 50 cal rifle belonging to a good friend of mine, the only ML I own is a Knight American Knight model that my wife bought for me. I shoot it a lot though I haven't been able to hunt with it, bad health and work both being responsible for this.

Your suggestion is a very nice one - not sure if Illinois allows the use of smokeless MLs during shotgun season, or if Indiana or Wisconsin do. I'm presuming that Shawano in WI would allow it because they allow the use of rifles for deer over there. Not sure if anyone uses smokeless MLs over there, though. I have a new friend who is a senior WI DNR official and who is a keen muzzleloading enthusiast and hunter. Let me ask him about how popular these guns are in his state.

Thanks for a very thought provoking discussion and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Dphariss
.300 member

Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 130
Loc: Montana

Re: Modern designs [Re: Tatume]
#87641 - 23/10/07 03:36 PM

Quote:

Dear Plains99,

To take your second question first, the area where I hunt is not densely populated. The shots I take are downhill or into a hillside, and pose no risk. The county just has too many politicians.

Frequently I'm posed with 200-yard shots, and the rifle I'm using has a 200-yard point blank range. When I can get closer I do, but it's not always possible. While I have killed deer at 200 yards with my H&R UltraSlug 12 ga rifle using Federal 2 3/4" Premium slugs with Barnes bullets, 150 yards is the practical limit for that gun. Some time ago I stopped taking longer shots with it, when I realized that paper ballistics notwithstanding, it was not up to the job. This was my motivation for having the modern muzzleloader built. (Interestingly, the Barnes .500" 325 gr bullet performs perfectly at 200 yards, and only at this range can one be recovered from a deer.)

The Barnes 300 gr .458 X-bullet will not come apart at 2700 fps, and it performs very well at lower speeds. Barnes says it needs 1800 fps to expand reliably, but the last one I used was probably slower than that at impact, and made a fist-sized exit hole. Also, the Sierra 300 gr .4515" pistol bullet is very "hard" and holds together well.

Accuracy of my rifle is sub-MOA, and it is very comfortable to shoot. Working with cutting-edge technology is very satisfying, as much so as working with 1800s technology; just different.

Take care, Tom

Whats the point?? You are hunting with ML in name only.

I would rather stalk than snipe, its almost always possible to get to 100 yards of deer even where I live. The is especially true if the area is hilly. Part of the hunting with a ML is the stalking within the limited range.

So far as your HV jacketed bullet "ML" being "legal". It shouldn't be in an area closed to CFs. If its dangerous to shoot a centerfire in this area then its dangerous to shoot this thing. Its not just aimed fire and the bullets that strike their target. What about an accidental discharge killing someone a mile or more away???
This is irresponsible. Its "I can fool the system" attitudes of this sort that get areas closed to all firearms hunting.
I keep hoping that the regulators in areas like this will wake up to the ballistics of conical bullet MLs.

Dan

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Dphariss]
#87651 - 24/10/07 12:16 AM

> Whats the point?? You are hunting with ML in name only.

Which is exactly what I said I was doing. During the ML season I use caplock and flintlock rifles from previous centuries. The modern gun is for the general firearms season.

> I would rather stalk than snipe, its almost always possible to get to 100 yards of deer even
> where I live. The is especially true if the area is hilly. Part of the hunting with a ML is the
> stalking within the limited range.

Sounds good, and I hope you enjoy yourself. What suits you must not necessarily suit everyone.

> So far as your HV jacketed bullet "ML" being "legal". It shouldn't be in an area closed to CFs.
> If its dangerous to shoot a centerfire in this area then its dangerous to shoot this thing.

This is simply not true. There are lots of counties where stupid policitians make the hunting regulations. Many of these counties are wide open, pure farmland and forested land. There is no justification whatsoever for restrictive regulations. Just stupid politicians.

> Its not just aimed fire and the bullets that strike their target. What about an accidental
> discharge killing someone a mile or more away???

By this argument you would outlaw firearms altogether.

> This is irresponsible. Its "I can fool the system" attitudes of this sort that get areas closed
> to all firearms hunting. I keep hoping that the regulators in areas like this will wake up to the
> ballistics of conical bullet MLs.

If you get your wish you'll be playing right into the hands of the gun grabbers.

Take care, Tom

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Plains99
.300 member

Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Tatume]
#87654 - 24/10/07 01:19 AM

This is always the controversy over inline versus primitive, smokeless muzzleloaders versus conventional. In Kansas the regs do not allow smokeless powder muzzleloaders (or more precisely the use of smokeless powder) during black powder season. Probably just as well cause it helps prevent these types of confrontations... but we still have the primitive sidelock boys unhappy with the inline boys presenting the same arguments I've seen here.
Have to agree with Tatume here. As long as the regulations allow his rifle, he is free to use it and has the right. We can challenge the legislation but don't go after each other because we are playing into the hands of gun control groups and these arguments can be twisted. I have both primitive sidelocks and inlines and during our early season the surrounding cover and high temps limit shot opportunities anyway and I wouldn't feel handicapped hunting strictly with primitive, black powder muzzleloaders. Sometimes I use them and sometimes inlines. Really it doesn't make much difference. Open sights only is more of a limiting factor than which gun I use.
And of course the lack of an immediate backup shot... except in Kansas we can use double barrel muzzleloders in the early season and I consider that to be a big advantage over single shots. So, I guess I could challenge their use if I wanted to make a stink. But I won't.

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mehulkamdar
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.

Re: Modern designs [Re: Plains99]
#87682 - 24/10/07 11:19 AM

Plains99/Tom,

Thanks for the clearly enunciated views. We do not need more divisions among us or the gun grabbers and the green junkies will get us by the short hairs. I keep hearing that Wisconsin has not been able to reach the number of deer they need to kill every year for the past three years due to declining numbers of hunters and that proposals to extend the seasons have been stalled because of arguments between bow and gun hunters. The only people laughing are the antis...

Good hunting, everyone. The arguments over gun types should be reserved for the after hunt dinners along with discussions about the one that got away and the stories of the hunt.

Let us not fight on a public forum and give ammunition to our enemies to kill us with.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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Plains99
.300 member

Reged: 10/11/04
Posts: 225
Loc: Dodge City, Kansas, USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: mehulkamdar]
#87851 - 27/10/07 12:20 AM

Kansas has the same problem. Number of deer hunters seem to have maxed out so they are allowing more deer on a tag and are bringing in out of state hunters. So now we have large prime No-hunting areas tied up by outfitters catering to the fat wallet crowd. Can't blame Wildlife and Parks because they have to manage the exploding deer population but in some ways it has backfired in spite of liberal walk-in hunting programs. I'm allowed to take as many as five whitetails in my unit... a buck and as many as four doe tags so I get to hunt a lot and always fill the freezer with meat, but during the mid-September muzzleloader season I very seldom run into any one else hunting. Two reasons for this, IMHO. One is a hunter safety education system that until recently prevented a lot of kids from experiencing hunting and we lost a lot of potential hunters. That has changed and we can now let kids hunt with us on "learner permits." That will stir up interest I believe. The other is the timing of the early muzzleloader season. A lot of guys don't want to fight the bugs, heat, sweat and weeds to hunt deer. A later season would encourage muzzleloading.... except that the bow hunters would cause a stink cause it would get into their time. I've hunted with muzzleloaders for over 30 years and in spite of all the fancy claims and marketing hype, most muzzleloaders perform on a level with a .30-30 or a .45-70 depending on the load and caliber. I like hunting in November with open sight and receiver sight .30-30's for the challenge so I normally leave the muzzleloaders at home any more. But I wouldn't feel unduly handicapped if I was limited to a muzzleloader cause they do the job quite well.

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: Modern designs [Re: Plains99]
#93665 - 07/01/08 01:00 AM

Hello Folks,

Our deer season ended yesterday, which I spent listening to and watching birds. It was a beautiful day in the woods. Earlier in the season I shot two does, but every day spent in the woods was rewarding.

The modern muzzleloader seems to be working okay. This year I hunted with it exclusively throughout the “regular gun” season. As I said earlier, my intent with this gun is to have greater range than a rifled slug, and be legal in all Virginia counties. Centerfire rifles are not allowed in many counties, and many also don’t allow slugs. Muzzleloading rifles, including modern, scoped rifles, are permitted everywhere.

The first deer was downhill, behind me on my left, between 100 and 150 yards. I twisted around and shot over my left shoulder. Before I broke the shot I thought to myself “this is going to hurt.” It did too. The scope busted my nose wide open. The deer was positioned for a perfect side shot, but before I could shoot it turned and was facing me, head down to the ground, feeding. The bullet entered at the base of the neck and exited between the hams, penetrating the full length of the animal. Sierra says the 300 gr .4515” pistol bullet is the hardest bullet they make. This one created a terrible surface wound; that deer looked like I had killed it with a hand grenade. It turned out that the cause was bone fragments blown from the neck. Obviously, the deer didn’t go anywhere. There was almost no meat damage.

On the second deer I waited until the doe turned sideways to me before I shot. Again, the Sierra pistol bullet performed perfectly at between 100 and 150 yards. The deer dropped like the proverbial sack full of hammers, and had a mouthful of green leaves when I field-dressed it. The exit wound was about the size of a quarter, and the lungs were destroyed. Performance was perfect, with no meat loss.

Our freezer is now well stocked with red meat, but my wife says I’m to get out and replenish our supply of fish as soon as the weather permits. She’s so demanding and hard to live with! :-)

Take care, Tom

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