Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Tracking dogs of Europe

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Hunting >> Hunting dogs

Pages: 1
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Tracking dogs of Europe
      #86613 - 04/10/07 09:26 PM

In short...tracking dog is exclusively used for tracking wounded animals...it works on cold trail with "low" nose...true quality appears in working on cold trail (3 + hrs old) when high step of concentraiton is shown - tracking can last for more days and tens of kilometers...so after tracking a wounded animal is found there are two options - either dead or alive...when alive you must release the dog to catch with the animal and loudly barks - usually the game move as far until it feels its safe from you - there it seeks a good terain (to cover its back) at that moment dog must be there...the moment the game stops the barking change from higher (on the move) to lover howling like...when that happens you must silently, with good wind stalk within the range and give the animal "coupe de grace" or finishing shot...it might sound easy but to train the dog up to this grade there is a lot of work to be done, usually it takes 3-4 years before you have thrustworthy dog and you can hardly afford any mistakes in education...thats why you will see those dogs mainly in the hands of PH or very experienced hunter...

Here in our places we mainly use 2 breeds:

1. Bavarian tracking dog - lighter, with more hound - like character - mainly for higher mountain terrains - for chamois, red deer and boar...but also used in lower - flater regions:





2. His cousin or better his uncle and predecessor is Hanoverian - biger and heavier - with cool lazy character - mainly used in flatter terains for tracking mostly boar and red deer.



I have used them both - they both have their ups and downs - Bavarian is more handy according to its size, bares with heat better, is faster to catch up with fleeing game, however sometimes a bit jumpy on older trails (24 hr+). Hanoverian - they ripe very late - and need a good sensitive trainer (training them can be a pain in the arse), but once they got some rutine and age (5 years on) they shine, especially when working on very old trails (up to 72 hours old).

Edited by 93mouse (04/10/07 09:32 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40539
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86620 - 05/10/07 12:44 AM

Very interesting. Love the dogs too.

So you have two 'hounds' for tracking wounded game?

But how does it work? Are you an expert with hounds that hunters call on to track wounded animals? Do you charge a fee or do it for the love of hunting?

A much better scheme than finding the neighbourhood mutt and hoping for the best that he will track a wounded animal down, or more likely never find it.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: NitroX]
      #86626 - 05/10/07 05:13 AM

I only use one dog but - it is all that is needed when tracking ordinary game like roes, reds, chamois, mouflon...However when going after cheeky stuff like brown bear or boars there is allways good to have a cannon fodder i.e. scout - meaning you have a main tracking dog on the halter (it is 8-12 m long) and one dog that is freely searching the area infront.

Bears here aren't so uncanny than boars. When you approach a wounded bear he usually lets you know that he/she is near by roaring. Them boars are sneaky ones (in fact they are very smart) - they are quite aware about their poor status and they know someone will be coming behind them so when they run out of the steam they make a loop or something and lay with the wind coming from their trail - laying still (you will never hear them untill they let a short spooky snif and come - very fast). They don't care much about the dog - it is you they can't stand - so it is more than likely they will let the dog to pass and jump you from the flank - usually in the thick stuff where you can't see 2 meters ahead - halter and rifle sticking around bushes...it doesn't happen frequently (it depends on their current status, terrain, single carracter of the animal...) but if you stir the pot a lot it will happen sooner or later (been there - the Hanoverian bitch from the second pic payed the ultimate prize on such occasion). So it is wise to use two dogs, but it works with one (must be well experienced one) as well. It also helps if you learn the dog to work without halter - dog is freely tracking infront of you - keeping a contact (waiting for you if necessary) - not possible with vivacious types.

I used to track for $ while I was a student (never enough , but now I do it just for hunting sake - if I have time - mainly only in my preserve or for close friends.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40539
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86653 - 05/10/07 10:07 PM

Are a lot of bears hunted in Slovenia?

How do they compare to Brown and Black bears in North America? Which would they be most closely related to?

I remember seeing a bear at Konopiste Castle in the Czech Republic. But I think it was a sloth bear, which is Indian, not European.


***

Thanks for the comments on how the tracking works.

If you have any stories to share please don't hesitate.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: NitroX]
      #86661 - 05/10/07 11:11 PM

Estimated numbers here in Slovenia is between 450-500 (maybe more) - we shoot ~ 100 annualy.
Not an bio-expert but I guess EU brown bear (Ursus arctos) is closely related to grizzly bear (Ursus arctos horribilis) as well as to Kodiak bear (Ursus arctos middendorffi). EU brown bear are smaller tho - reaching up to 350 kg - 770 lbs (full weight).

Will post some stuff regarding trackings - I am away from computer till next week.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86797 - 08/10/07 07:58 PM

It is always good when shooter look through the shot and correctly call the hit. Among other signs found on the spot it helps wiht correctly timed pursuit.

Many hits need some time before you do the tracking – liver, kidney, guts... Those are all deadly and from trackers perspective nothing to write home about – i.e. with experienced dog it is just a matter of time to retrieve the quarry. Animal when hit, will quickly move out of the sight but usually not far – i.e. that far that it will fill secure and it will rest there. Hits described above need some time to “cook” (3 hours are usually enough). After that time if animal hasn’t died already it will be so sick that it wont be capable of rising anymore. However many times shooter rushes to the place where the game was hit and pursuit the blood trail up to where the animal has bedded down. Game will instantly relate the pain with the coming of the pursuer and make a flee in its last gasp – that will make tracking with dog later unnecessary harder and longer.

With modern ballistics capacity (powders, bullets…), use of optic sights, those above will result in short tracking. The most tracking in these days are more the following:

Grazing shots, shots hitting the front leg, snout…there is an urge to get experienced dog and tracker on the site as soon as possible. Those wounds are survivable in the short term (they cause a long term agony tho) and animal that was hit like, will usually not take any rest in the vicinity but go astray for some time. In the meantime there will be healthy tracks crossing the wounded one and the job will get the messier the later it will be conducted – at the end dog would have to approach the wounded animal and made it stand the ground. So all the work on the cold trail is like empty run up to the place where we will catch up with animal.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86906 - 10/10/07 04:53 PM

One thing some hunters may have a problem with is delivering the finishing shot alias "coupe the grace". Before any of my tracking I must made it clear that when dog will holding the animal it is only me that will deliver it, unless the circumstances make me change that decision. It can be a tricky stuff - animal and dog in close contact (usually less than a meter), circling around each other and believe me it is better that I shoot my dog by accident than anybody else (seen it happen too many times) and it is a stupid loss of a fine tuned companion that needed 4 or more years for general application. Just for a illustration here a couple of pics (not mine - should get my own photographer one day ) from such occasions (bare in mind that usually situation isn't that clear).


A case of a no-no shot situation, wait for dog to move out of the line



Yup there are three dogs






Use of bullets that hold together well and penetrate straight is a must.

Sources:

http://personales.ya.com/teckel/bgs_caza.html

http://www.czerwonytrop.com/gb/indexgb.html


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86908 - 10/10/07 05:09 PM

mouse
keep it coming i love to see how you guys are doing it at your place, looks alot like how we do it except most of the dogs here are either GWP or labs.
briliant pics almost feels like you are there.

thanks

peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40539
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: peter]
      #86913 - 10/10/07 06:41 PM

Mouse

I too have been enjoying your comments and photos. Shows a different side of hunting than what most comment on.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
gryphon
.450 member


Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: NitroX]
      #86916 - 10/10/07 07:53 PM

What a great thread with top bail pics too,excellent and enjoyable tales.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: gryphon]
      #86922 - 10/10/07 10:09 PM

Thanks guys – I appreciate it – you should have been there when - after couple of kilometers – deadly tired - asking yourself what the heck am I doing here - the animal stops and the barking of the dog became low howling – all the pain is forgotten and you praise the day you have brought your puppy in the house and start training it, swearing many times – but now he/she is there calling you to come and help...hard to describe but it is a divine feeling.



Yours trully after 6 hours and 8 kilometers with almost 100 F heat - stag initially shot in the front left knee - beaten tired, drenched in sweat but happy

Many times after successful tracking I hear hunters saying “I must get one of those”, but at the end they figure it out what it really takes to make a good performance tracking dog and they realize it would be easier to just call me or some other guy to do the job.

As guys from RAF said: “Per ardua ad astra” it is a dirty but highly self rewarding job – however there are tracks without end that you just can’t solve and it is hard to shake off the feeling that there is a clue there somewhere that you just can’t find and must leave the track at the end without finding the quarry.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Chasseur
.375 member


Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #86938 - 11/10/07 01:16 AM

Great post Mouse!

Do you guys use dauschhunds/teckels over there or not? I've seen them used quite a bit for tracking wounded game in France.

You are making think more and more about taking a hunting trip in your lovely country!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: Chasseur]
      #86981 - 11/10/07 10:30 PM

Yup some guys do - in fact no breed is excluded from tracking business "per se" - there are many good tracking dogs found within other breeds (as long as particullar dog have a talent to work on a cold trail) - but the majority is Bavarians and Hanoverians.

P.S. You are wellcome - just drop me a note when you will be around and we can have a drink - or two .


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #87966 - 29/10/07 09:38 PM

Sometimes it is just too much - last week was crowded - monday tracked roe calf, tuesday chamois, friday boar and yesterday a stag and a red calf. All trackings were after animals that were still alive and the amount of efforts take its tole. Yesterday when I was returning to the vehicle after tracking, my dog got an epileptic seizure - nasty stuff for those not familiar - but its okay now. Will rest her for some days - hope it doesnt occure again.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #88319 - 06/11/07 12:48 PM

Mouse,

Lovely posts and most handsome dogs!

Hope your dog is fine now and ready to go out hunting again.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 40539
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #88321 - 06/11/07 01:08 PM

Quote:

Yesterday when I was returning to the vehicle after tracking, my dog got an epileptic seizure - nasty stuff for those not familiar - but its okay now. Will rest her for some days - hope it doesnt occure again.




No I have never experienced anything like that with a dog. Hope your dog is well again and has a good rest. Dogs are like children to a lot of us, me at least.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: NitroX]
      #88343 - 06/11/07 07:51 PM

hi mouse

if it occurs again she needs to get medication, i dont remember the name but will find out. a friend of mine had the most amasing lab, except if he dident get his medication he got seizurs due to the work. medicated there was no problem though. i hope she will be allright.

peter


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5561
Loc: United States
Re: ErikD?? Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: peter]
      #88595 - 10/11/07 01:00 AM

Mouse, GREAT post and super pictures. A really great topic all the way around. Your posts of hunting in your country are quite fascinating. Some of your pictures looks so much like home here in the mountains in Idaho, also!

I do not own any hunting hounds, but I have hunted black bear with hounds here in Idaho many times. This is hound hunting of the bear, not followup of wounded game. All with ground trailing hounds; Walkers, Plotts, a couple Black and Tans, Blueticks, Redbones, Redticks, a couple Gastognes. I have also been in on a successful cougar race but never shot one. There are large numbers of hounds in our area. Our bear are small, weighing on average around 150-200 pounds but a few are much larger. Only black bear may be hunted/shot. We have grizzly, but they cannot be legally shot. Black bear are amazing runners and I have seen many a race won by the bear, some starting in the early morning and going all day and into the late night, with fresh dogs placed on the track, the bear even sighted briefly, but the bear outrunning the dogs anyway. Cougar are sprinters, have weak lungs and cannot run far, but bear have powerful hearts and lungs and incredible stamina.

I have had long discussions with officials in the Idaho Fish and Game Department about allowing the use of hounds for tracking wounded deer and elk, even on an experimental basis. They are totally opposed to any use of dogs for tracking such game for cultural reasons but someday, who knows? Maybe they will come to their senses. Many, many animals are wounded and lost each year, a large number of which I am certain would be found with hounds. Another use of the tracking dogs would be for followup of animals struck and only wounded by motor vehicles, which is a common occurence also.

Maybe ErikD or another Scandinavian could weigh in here, as the Norwegians and I believe Swedes, too have a law that requires hunters to maintain a contract with a dog handler/tracker. The tracker can be called if necessary to follow up rådyr, hjort and elg and I suspect such activity saves many an otherwise lost animal.

As for epilepsy, I had a beagle with the disorder and currently have a mutt {of partial hound blood} with the disorder also. I have been told by veterinarians here that epilepsy is not uncommon among some hound breeds.

Anyway, here we must track on our own, with no dogs allowed. In fact, just a couple weeks ago I spent four long hours on the trail of a wounded buck whitetail. Bullet struck brush {we found the contact} and deflected some and the animal was hit hard but not dead. This animal left a long blood trail, but when the blood stopped and the tracks mixed with many, many other fresh ones, the trail went cold for us. Good news is that the track ended with the animal hiding on the south face of a mountain in thick dense brush, exploding from its bed and running hard uphill when we walked by at about 10 meters distance. It was stopped while running with a shot from behind with a 6.5x55 carbine that broke its femur and plowed through the chest cavity, broke a rib and was found under the hide. Yes, I wish we were allowed the use of dogs!!!

What rifle and caliber do you use when tracking?

Again, thanks for a great post!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: ErikD?? Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 9.3x57]
      #88603 - 10/11/07 01:49 AM

Personally 9,3x62 but you can see a 8x57, .308W and similar as well (point is in slow heavy bullets from short barrel) - all in all rifle has to be short, light, reliable and expendable - attaching rifle sling at the top of the barrel is a good thing (helps when going through some thick stuff - one of the main assets that got me a R93 offroad tracker:



But you can see many M98 type "choppers" in the hands of other guys.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Taylor416
.300 member


Reged: 25/11/04
Posts: 161
Loc: Central West, New South Wales....
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: 93mouse]
      #95494 - 30/01/08 11:08 AM

Mouse,

I realise that this is a couple of months old, but i had not heard of any other dogs having fits similar to this.

Quote:

Yesterday when I was returning to the vehicle after tracking, my dog got an epileptic seizure - nasty stuff for those not familiar - but its okay now. Will rest her for some days - hope it doesnt occure again.




When I lived in the Northern Territory, one of the dogs that I used to hunt pigs. was a Staffordshire cross English Bull Terrier. He also used to have occasional epileptic seizures, and as you say it was not nice.

I found that if he ran in the heat, and he would go for 3 to 5 kilometres on a trail, and with excitement such as a fight at the end with a decent pig, he would fit. After that I only took him in the cooler months, and rested him after each run and provided plenty of water and he was fine. Another great courageous little dog in my life that I love to remember fondly!!

Great posts, love reading them

cheers
Chris


--------------------
Love to hunt!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
93mouse
.375 member


Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 745
Loc: Slovenia
Re: Tracking dogs of Europe [Re: Taylor416]
      #95523 - 30/01/08 07:29 PM

Thanks Chris - I am monitoring the dog closely - I had some more hard and long trails to solve after that and all was well - so far, will see - it looks like it was a Murphy thing - many things together - exaustion, sugar drop in blood, thirst...and not a classic seisure.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1



Extra information
0 registered and 11 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  NitroX 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4581

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved