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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double?
      #86343 - 29/09/07 02:03 AM

Gents,
anyway to tell on rifle made in Belguim if the gun was built for a full Nitro load or a NFB load? The gun in question is a very light .450 at 6&3/4lbs, supossedly a nitro gun. I'm a bit leary and unsure of beguim proof marks. Thanks,
Steve

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #86352 - 29/09/07 06:31 AM

Yeah, you're left guessing some with the Belgian DRs.

What do the proof marks say? If there's a lion rampant over "PV" and "B. Blindee" (jacketed bullet), or "B. B"., then it MIGHT be a full nitro. If it has the PV with "B. Plomb" (lead bullet), or "B. P.", it's definitely a nitro for black. Note that with respect to the proof marks on rifles proved for NFB loads, the term "Nitro Proof" is meaningless. Nitro for Black proof is black powder proof, period.

If the rifle has PV and B. Blindee on the flats and is 6 3/4 lbs, then the only reasonable conclusion is that it's a NFB, which is the same as a BPE. Yes, the Belgians built some full nitros terribly light, but a little common sense needs to prevail. At 6 3/4 lbs, I can't imagine it being a full .450 Nitro Express.

This isn't the Boland, is it?

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86379 - 29/09/07 10:17 PM

400,
I had a feeling you might have a little insight into these guns and their proof marks, and yes, the Boland is exactly the gun I was inquiring about. It seems like a nice piece, in great shape, but a full .450 at 6&3/4lbs just didnt sound right. I have a feeling its a NFB rifle....nice though. Thanks for the info.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #86388 - 30/09/07 04:12 AM

I thought so. Yes, it's a lovely rifle. Even if it was full nitro proof, I sure wouldn't use that kind of load in it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Sarg
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Reged: 20/01/07
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86397 - 30/09/07 10:19 PM

Hi Guys!

This is Light Nitro or Nitro for black for sure ! As I was looking at this very rifle a year ago ,the owner said it regulated with 50gr of 4198 & 350gr slug .
Yes looks good ,but they have made it look better in there photos than the ones I got !

Cheers

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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Sarg]
      #86407 - 01/10/07 06:13 AM

Don't want to intrude, but this is a subject I need help with. Perhaps "400 Nitro" has the answer as he seems to know about this stuff. I have a 500-450 I've assumed was a BPE, but not sure. Each barrel is marked "B. Blindee" and "11.1". Each barrel flat has the lion over P.V., a letter "R", an "S"under a star, and a crown atop an oval with "E", "LG", and a star inside. There's also a circle with what may be two men with shields inside. On the left barrel are the letters "L. CAFFORT. SAIGON" in gold. The barrel grooves measure .451", the twist is 1 in 14", and the rifle weighs 8 1/2 lbs. It is a SLE with small diameter bushed firing pins. I presumed the 11.1 was the proof in metric tons, which makes it a BPE, but the twist and other features point to a nitro gun.

What do you think?

Otto

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Otto]
      #86408 - 01/10/07 07:00 AM

Otto:

The "R" is applied to rifled long arms. The star over "S" is the inspector's mark. The crown over ELG in an oval is the definitive proof mark for a rifle having undergone single, final proof. The "11.1" is not the pressure, it's bore diameter in millimeters.

How did you decide that this gun is a .500/.450? Are there caliber markings on top of the barrel?

I presume you mean that .451" is the groove diameter? That sure is tight for a .450.

This is a good example of why it is often impossible to say for sure with a Belgian rifle in a caliber that was offered as both black and nitro. A .450 at 6 1/2 lbs, the answer is pretty clear. At 8.5 lbs, marked as proved for jacketed bullets, it could be full nitro. They made some that light. J. J. Perodeau had a no name Belgian Guild DR, a .500 Nitro, in his shop a while back. It weighed 9 lbs.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: bouldersmith]
      #86429 - 01/10/07 07:25 PM

Hi bouldersmith.
The Belgians sure did build some light double rifles, but a .450 at 6 1/2 pounds is hard to imagine.
Has the 6 1/2 pounds actually been confirmed on a scale, or has someone taken a guess?

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Otto
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 4seventy]
      #86430 - 01/10/07 09:38 PM

400 Nitro,
Thanks for the info. The caliber, "500-450", is stamped on each barrel bottom just forward of "B. Blindee" and "11.1". Nowhere on the rifle is a maker identified, unless its the two guys with shields in a circle on the barrel flats. BTW, the chambers differ from the Brit 500-450. The shoulders are sharper and a bit further forward. Case length seems to be 3 1/4". I've been shooting 480gr cast GC bullets sized to .452. Decided by the fast twist to try heavier bullets. I've considered trying the Barnes bullets made for the 460 S&W since they measure .451, but hear all the bad stuff about X bullets in a DR. This is a "best" gun...SLE, hinged front trigger, full coverage rose and scroll, stunning wood...why wouldn't a maker want his name on it?

Otto

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Otto]
      #86462 - 02/10/07 01:01 PM

Otto-

You should cast those chambers with cerrosafe casting alloy (get it from brownells) and include the first inch or so of your bores/grooves.

Also, on that barnes x bullet idea...
I'd thought of doing the same thing with a 500/450 double rifle I got a while back. Don't go there. First make double darn sure what your bore/groove dimensions are then once you're sure of what you have go with hard cast or copper jacketed bullets.
With the barnes or other solid copper bullets you have a chance of screwing your barrels up. With jacketed or hard cast bullets you have little or no chance of (solely due to bullet choice) screwing those expensive barrels up with your bullets.

Another thing to consider is that your rifle was built to shoot *some* bullet, and it's not likely that bullet was solid copper or solid cupric alloy. Might as well start your load development with something that was likely to be available when the rifle was regulated.


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: tinker]
      #86483 - 02/10/07 06:00 PM

i would really like to see some pic of this gem, and i think im not the only one.

peter

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Otto
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: peter]
      #86486 - 02/10/07 09:10 PM

Anyone willing to help post pix for me? I'd be glad to email pix to someone willing.

BTW,I put the rifle on an accurate scale and it heffs 9lbs 4oz, NOT 8 1/2lbs

Otto

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Otto]
      #86493 - 03/10/07 12:44 AM

Otto:

At that weight and marked as it is, I wouldn't be surprised if it's full nitro. If you haven't already, I'd ask J. J. about this gun. He's French, studied gunmaking in Liege, and practiced his trade with Marcel Thys. I can't think of anyone in the US who would be more familiar with that type.

As for the X bullet, don't. I helped ruin a nice DR with them. They'll do nothing that a correct bullet won't and aren't worth the risk.

There are quite a few of these Belgian guild DRs with no name on them. Many are of excellent quality.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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GeoffM24
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Reged: 31/12/06
Posts: 8
Loc: MA
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86513 - 03/10/07 10:27 AM

I had this gun on hold but let it go. I'm looking for a full nitro

Here are some of the pics Cabelas sent me.


By geoffm24


By geoffm24

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: GeoffM24]
      #86515 - 03/10/07 11:01 AM


Geoff

What have your pics you posted got to do with
the gun we are discussing here in this forum ?

Is it one and the same ?


Care to put a bit more detail on the gun you
"let go" and what the proof marks told you ?

Edited by 500Nitro (03/10/07 11:03 AM)

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #86516 - 03/10/07 12:24 PM

Quote:


What have your pics you posted got to do with
the gun we are discussing here in this forum ?



It's the flats of the Boland that Bouldersmith was asking about at the beginning of this thread.

I don't see anything that makes me think it's a full nitro.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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GeoffM24
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Reged: 31/12/06
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Loc: MA
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86590 - 04/10/07 09:12 AM

Those are pics of the proofs on the gun that the thread is about. I was going to buy the gun and had Cabelas put it on hold for me until they could send me some pics. 400 Nitro helped me a great deal with what to look for. The gun is in fact marked for Nitro. The information on this thread as well as no proof marks in relationship to the gun being for jacketed bullets as well as the super light weight tell me it is almost certainly a nitro for black powder gun, which I don't want.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
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Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Otto]
      #86830 - 09/10/07 07:38 AM

Quote:

Anyone willing to help post pix for me? I'd be glad to email pix to someone willing.

BTW,I put the rifle on an accurate scale and it heffs 9lbs 4oz, NOT 8 1/2lbs

Otto



ottos rifle, sorry about the delay otto











please ad your comments, here is mine(really nice piece )

peter

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Otto
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Reged: 15/09/05
Posts: 111
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: peter]
      #86866 - 09/10/07 11:08 PM

Thanks Peter.

400Nitro...Do the pix shed any more light on NFB or full nitro?

Otto

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herrdoktor
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Reged: 03/08/07
Posts: 85
Loc: Spain
Re: full Nitro VS NFB in a belguim made double? [Re: Otto]
      #86875 - 10/10/07 04:55 AM

Hello, gentlemen:
It looks like there are more ultralight 450 DR than I thought! I have a Auguste Francotte in 450 3 1/4 that weights a shade over 6 1/2 pounds (3,05 kg). It looks very much lik the 470 Francotte you can see in the Forum. The serial number is 79703 and I am told it was made in 1920-21, quite late I think for a NFB. It has the lion over "PV" and the "balle plomb" marks, so I think it is a NFB. It shoots very well with Hornady and Woodleigh 350 grain and Hornady 300 grain bullets, 2" or less at 50 meters. Have any of you tried the 450 NFB Kynoch ammunition with one of this ultralights? Kynoch says it shoots the 350 gr Woodleigh at 2150 fps.
Anyone knows something about the purpose this Belgian DRs were made?

PD: What is the system for sending photos to the forum?

Tahnk you.

Antonio, Spain

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