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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE
      #85306 - 09/09/07 01:23 AM

I just aqquired my first Double rifle it is a H Scherping of Hanover Germany made around 1892, this rifle has beutiful damascus bbls, hammers, flip up leaf sight as well as recessed tang sight, henry style rifleing, horn butt plate, set triggers, fine rose & scroll engraving, case colour action and backlocks & chambered in 500BPE 3". This maker was incredibly skilled as evidenced in the other Scherping guns I have. This is my first exposure to big bore cartridges, where do I start, I am a reloader and will end up down that road but first I need to get my hands on some cartridges and or reloading components. This gun is black powder proofed so should I start by buying some loaded black powder cartridges or start by reloading and using smokeless for black? Where can I find ammo or components (Dies, load data, brass, bullets), all information greatly appreciated.

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1971
Loc: Denmark
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85310 - 09/09/07 06:39 AM

Congratulation with your new/old gun

I would advise you to reload ammo in blackpowder. The original load for the .500BPE was 140 grain Black powder + 440 grain leadbullet. I don`t know if the germans had some other loads aswell??.

If you are going to shoot this thing as you intend, it would be adviseable to have your barrels "slugged", and then order a bulletmold for the nominal dia.

Midway has a lot of reloading stuff, but also Buffalo Arms ifn idaho could supply you with stuff, such as brass , dies and bulletmold...maybe ever good leadbullets aswell.

The .500BPE caliber was considered a large medium bore of its time, and practicly every gunmaker around the world made that caliber.

IF you are going to reload smokeless powder, I would have the gun checked by a gunsmith WHO KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT DOUBLERIFLE AND BLACKPOWDERLOADS....not just any local "bubba"...even if it requires some travelling out of state.

If your gun is tight you shouldn`t be affraid to makeup blackpowderloads with FG/FFG blackpowder.
There are many books about reloading blackpowder rifle catridges...techniqes and such....one cannot too much litteratur about ones favorite hobby...bookcollecting will become a secondary hobby..hahaha

Never feel you ask too much....much better to ask too much...hahaha.
Please bring a picture!!
Everybody here loves to watch pictures

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Rustyzipper
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Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 83
Loc: North of the Zambezi, in Miser...
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: rigbymauser]
      #85392 - 10/09/07 10:45 PM

Yes, pictures please. I think you might want to stay with 2Fg. DON'T use 3Fg powder. The finer powder can produce a faster pressure curve and could possibly be detrimental to the Damascus barrels. It is too fine of hunting arm to chance testing the barrels. Good luck. Rustyzipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85401 - 11/09/07 02:14 AM

Have the rifle checked over by a qualified smith to be sure it's safe to fire, but choose carefully. There is a well known guy up your way that I would NOT use.

By definition, a BPE that is safe to fire with black is safe to fire with Nitro for Black loadings. NFB loadings produce the same pressures as black, and often less.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #85407 - 11/09/07 04:17 AM

Who is the well known guy up my way that you wouldn't recommend and why?
thanks
M-4

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85408 - 11/09/07 05:14 AM

m4220:

You have a PM.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85409 - 11/09/07 05:18 AM

m4220,

No pics? They are mandatory whenever you find time.

Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #85415 - 11/09/07 08:24 AM

Will try to figure out how to post once the gun arrives, it is in transit.
M-4

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mehulkamdar
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Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85485 - 12/09/07 11:49 AM

m4220,

Thanks in advance. You will have many fans and drooling people (most would be a combination of both) here whenever you post the pics. There are very comprehensive instructions on the forums on how to post pictures here and if you still find this difficult to do, there are many of us who would be more than happy to help.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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m4220
.300 member


Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #85941 - 20/09/07 01:11 PM

Mehul,
I just received the rifle & haven't taken any photo's yet but it can be seen on http://www.davidcondon.com/ catalog under sproting rifles, item # 21922. Take a look and tell me what you think.
m4220

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85957 - 20/09/07 06:36 PM

hi m4220

that is quite a price you got there, im mostly into the brit guns, but that is a real nice testament to the german gunmarkers. i allways liked the small diopters they put in there, such a nice tuch.

congratulations

peter

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: peter]
      #85971 - 21/09/07 01:51 AM

Sounds like a fantastic rifle, and should be great fun for hunting deer, pigs, elk, etc. It would even be worth considering taking it to Africa on a plains game and leopard safari.

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: 500grains]
      #85986 - 21/09/07 06:48 AM

That is one interesting piece.
The peep sight is of a form I have never seen on a German gun - maybe a copy of a Lyman sight.
Also the steep pistol grip is peculiar on such an old gun.
The German name for that is "Kaiser grip", maybe after Wilhelm II - he had a crippled left arm, and that form of grip may have helped him.
But this ugly and rather impractical thing became really popular much later, say around 1960 or 1970, when the good taste for guns was going down.

Fuhrmann

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: fuhrmann]
      #85988 - 21/09/07 08:06 AM

Quote:

The peep sight is of a form I have never seen on a German gun - maybe a copy of a Lyman sight.



I've seen a number of Scherping's over the years and what sticks in my memory about them is that very same tang mounted peep sight. I've never seen a Scherping rifle that didn't have it, including the doubles. Ross Seyfried had an article in the Spring 05 DGJ that featured a Scherping single shot. Same sight. They were also common on Sauers.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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m4220
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Loc: wa
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #85992 - 21/09/07 09:37 AM

Hi,
All three of my Scherping back action guns, 16ga damascus x 10.25x60R fluid cape gun, 16 x16 x 9.3x72R drilling, 500 BPE double rifle all have this type of sight as well as the folding leaf, they also have the moon front sight recessed into the rib for protection when not in use or fold up with white porcelin or ivory bead for low light conditions. Funny you should mention Wilhelm, the silver oval in the forend on the 500 is enscribed Wilhelm House s/l Prudor Gustav. The story that came with this gun was that it was brought back by an Army doctor who worked on the autopsy of Hermann Goring and that this gun came from Gorings collection.(no documentation). The 500 is the only one with this shape pistol grip the others are traditional round knob. All three have set triggers for the rifle (both set on the 500), horn butt plates & a horn pistol grip cap on the 500.
We will be sharing what we know of Heinrich Scherping from Hannover in the next journal from the German arms collectors assn. next month which will picture my cape gun. Any info on Scherping or pictures of his guns greatly appreciated as I am archieving them along with Dietrich Apel.
m4220

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #85993 - 21/09/07 10:16 AM

Check prior issues of Double Gun Journal. I distinctly remember an another previous article some years ago that Ross did on a Scherping double rifle.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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m4220
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Reged: 04/02/07
Posts: 233
Loc: wa
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #85994 - 21/09/07 10:42 AM

I have the article, it was in vol 8 issue 2 summer 1997, there was also an article by Tom Oppel written in The black powder cartridge news, winter 2006 issue # 56 on a 43 mause double rifle.
m4220

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #86009 - 21/09/07 04:03 PM

m4220
In holts catalog for the auction yesterday, there was one in there as well, they called it a 450x60r but i think it was a 43 mauser, nice gun but someone outbid me by 100£.




H. SCHERPING (HANNOVER) .450X60MM(R) TOPLEVER HAMMER DOUBLE RIFLE, serial no. 1421, 27in. damascus barrels with matt rib, open sights and gold bead fore-sight with flip-up moonsight, tubes engraved 'H. SCHERPING HOF-BUCHSENMACHER. HANNOVER', treble-grip action, carved percussion fences, rebounding back action locks, set triggers, top-tang with a flip-up aperture rear sight, border and partial scroll engraving, 13 7/8in. well-figured pistolgrip stock with cheekpiece, diamond grip, sling swivels, horn pistolgrip-cap and buttplate, crack at hand, weight 7lb. 4oz. The rifle was made pre-1891

it went for 800£

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fuhrmann
.333 member


Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #86014 - 21/09/07 05:25 PM

The peep sights that I have seen were all flush with the tang when folded down. Adjustment of windage and elevation by 2 tiny bars in dovetails. These were very common on better guns.
Here is an example:
http://www.egunn.de/market/item.php?id=1462207&PHPSESSID=6b1b226d45b5281bf6d364a80...

But the type on this Scherping rifle is new to me

Fuhrmann

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: m4220]
      #86015 - 21/09/07 05:43 PM

m4220,

that dedication on your gun reads to me:
Wilhelm Haase s/l. Bruder Gustav
Wilhelm Haase s(einem) l(ieben) Bruder Gustav
Wilhelm Haase to his beloved brother Gustav

My reference was to the Prussian Emperor (or Kaiser) Wilhelm II
http://www.germannotes.com/hist_kaiser_wilhelm.shtml
He had a crippled left arm, had to shoot practically one-handed. It seems he preferred guns with a very steep pistol grip, hence the "Kaisergriff".
This is very popular today, especially on Ferlach guns, although it's ugly and not at all useful if you have two good arms and hands.
On an old rifle this form is rare.

Really looking forward to the article!

Fuhrmann

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Heinrich Scherping 500 BPE [Re: fuhrmann]
      #86122 - 23/09/07 06:05 PM

Hi!

Great gun!

Just found it myself!

How much was she?

Many thanks

Ben

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