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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Single Shots & Combination Guns
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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Ferlach Combination Gun Questions
      #85444 - 11/09/07 09:56 PM

Sirs:
This is my first post here and I am new to these things.

I just bought a combination gun made in Ferlach Austria by John Sigot for $800. I spoke with a fellow in Idaho who used to import Ferlach guns and he said it was likely made around 1905. It is a hammer gun side-by-side with a 16ga barrel on one side and what I believe to be 7x65R on the other side. The workmanship is tremendous with lots of hand engraving. The trouble is that the gun appears to have been used as a truck gun for a lot of years. The bores are nice and the gun is very tight but the stock is all dinged up. The metal has some dings too. I will post some pictures later. I am not too interested in guns that just sit and look pretty so I'd like to shoot it.

My belief that it is 7x65R is somewhat of a guess based on some crude chamber measurements. I plan to make a cast of the chamber to get some better measurements but I can't find any dimension specs on the 7x65R. Also, I'd like to buy empties and reload so any suggestions on dies would be appreciated.

It is hard for me to resist the temptation to work on restoring this thing. Possibly I should resist and just use it and try to not do it too much more harm?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85445 - 11/09/07 10:01 PM

Sellier & Bellot offers 7x65R ammo and dies are still available from Hornady.

I believe you may be able to use 7x64 dies with a .303 shellholder. I used 7x57 dies with a .303 shellholder {same sh as the .375 H&H} with my 7x57R.

Who is the Idaho fellow? I am looking for a combination gun, trying to find a source for them.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85449 - 11/09/07 10:38 PM

Check this site for 7X65R dimensions: http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd7x65r.jpg

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Rolf
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Reged: 26/02/07
Posts: 402
Loc: Germany, Bavaria
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85463 - 12/09/07 02:48 AM

Hi Pete,

Caliber designation:
Normally you can find caliber designations and proof marks on the outside of the barrel near the chambers or under the frontend of the gun stock.

Reloading data:
If you send me a PM with intended bullet weighs and powders I can provide reloading info.
Also chamber dimensions, but my info is from the current data table of german proof law specifications, therefore dimensions can vary a bit to your gun, dated to 1905.

Components:
If you do not find components in USA (Huntington?), then I would recommend the german firm of Johannsen (www.johannsen-jagd.de). They have a nice catalogue (also in english language) for components for reloading many (rare) european cartridges (beware of the somentimes stiff prices).

Rolf

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85465 - 12/09/07 03:13 AM

The 7x65R was introduced in 1920. At that time the cartridge was considered quite hot, and was chambered in break-action guns with really solid locking mechanism (double locking bars, single Greener or double Kersten crossbolt etc.)
Caliber designations of that time are not so easy to interpret.

Better be careful and have this checked seriously.

Fuhrmann

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PeteDeal
.224 member


Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: fuhrmann]
      #85478 - 12/09/07 10:47 AM

Thanks for all the information. I found the picture with the case dimensions. I guess next I will make a chamber cast and take measurements- maybe tomorrow night. Here are some picturs:

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85483 - 12/09/07 11:47 AM

Pete,

That is one beautiful gun! For $ 800 it must feel like winning the Powerball.

IIRC Browning of Europe used to offer the 7x65R Brenneke ammunition some years ago and other EUropean manufacturers should. We also have some custom ammunition manufacturers here whom you could contact for loaded rounds and cases.

Congratulations and good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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PeteDeal
.224 member


Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #85487 - 12/09/07 12:27 PM

Thankyou but to tell the truth I am still trying to understand what I have. I went down and made a chamber cast and all the diameters are a few thousandths of an inch larger than those shown on the diagram in the above link at stevespages- very close. Also, it does appear to have three locks. The one shown in the above picture and two notches on the rib(not sure what the parts are called) that is part of the barrels and hinges down into the receiver.

The guy in Idaho that used to import Ferlach guns is:
Mountain Adventure Sports, 5045 Brennan Bend, Idaho Falls, ID 83401, 208-523-1545

Thank you for all the information.

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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85505 - 12/09/07 03:27 PM

Hello PeteDeal,
take care concerning your 7x65R caliber.At that time many guns where made for the 7x72R cartridge in Austria.
regards Johann
from Austria

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 328
Loc: Switzerland
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85508 - 12/09/07 06:39 PM

PeteDeal,

this is an interesting combination of a dolls head rib extension and a Greener cross bolt. Never seen that before.
Besides the chamber cast, caliber should be determined by forcing a slug of soft lead through the barrel.
And please check the bottom side of the barrel (next to the lugs) for proof marks and caliber designation.
Photos of this might help.

Fuhrmann

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: fuhrmann]
      #85511 - 12/09/07 09:08 PM

I will slug the barrel and take a picture of the underneath of the barrels. I don't think it can be 7x72R since the chamber is 65mm long. There are a bunch of numbers stamped and proof marks but nothing recognizable as a caliber. Also, I should state that the date of 1905 is a rough guestimate of the fellow who used to import them. I am not really sure on that one.

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fuhrmann
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Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85517 - 12/09/07 10:23 PM

Just from the appearance, the gun might well be made around 1900, or also between 1920 and WWII.
Or a pair of new barrels was fitted at some time.
In any case there should be proof marks and numbers thay may give a clue.

Fuhrmann

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
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Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: fuhrmann]
      #85543 - 13/09/07 11:15 AM

Here are the best pictures I could get of the underside of the barrels and the action. There is no stamping on the exterior of the gun. The upper barrel in the first two pictures is the rifle barrel.






Edited by PeteDeal (13/09/07 11:19 AM)

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fuhrmann
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Reged: 04/01/05
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Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85561 - 13/09/07 04:24 PM

Some things I know, others not.

The company of Johann Sigott may have survived WWII, but is out of business now.
You can find some Johann Sigott guns and catalogs dated from the 1920s and 1930s via internet.
Here is an example: http://www.gebrauchtwaffen.at/item.php?id=2560
This gun is from 1925, completely reworked, with a new barrel or rifle barrel insert, but otherwise quite similar.

Proof marks are from the Ferlach proof house.
Böhler Blitz Stahl: barrel steel producer, good quality

All the numbers I can only guess:
698.37. should be the number given by the proof house; 37 may be the year 1937?
7.3 may be the groove diameter in mm
9.0 g (??) it may be the bullet weight in grams
MG Mantelgeschoss, jacketed bullet
1779 may be serial number given by gunmaker
all the numbers on the bottom rib ???????

I see no indication for the actual caliber, i.e. 7x57R or 7x65R or ......., sorry.

For any further information you might try the Ferlach proof house, phone +43 4227 2576

Fuhrmann

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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85569 - 13/09/07 07:15 PM

Hello PeteDeal,
Fuhrmanns answer concerning your gun is perfect.It was built and nitro proofed 1937 in Ferlach and the gun no. is 1779.
The stamping 7,3 on the barrel foot means .284/7,21mm bullet diameter.
So the following cartridges are possible :
7x57R
7x65R
7x72R
As you already measured the shell lenght with 65,0mm , so it's 7x65R
regards Johann

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
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Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #85572 - 13/09/07 09:12 PM

Thanks very much for all the help! Now I will start to look for some reloading components. I also need to measure the shotgun chamber length. The chamber has a smooth transition (forcing cone?) from chamber to barrel. Funny, here is a gun made in 1937 done that way and as I understand it just recently in the US our modern shotguns have started to be made this way.

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Collath_500BPE
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Reged: 30/08/06
Posts: 123
Loc: Europe, Austria
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #85574 - 13/09/07 10:00 PM

Hi PeteDeal,
the shotgun chamber length at that time was 16/65.It's very
easy to measure.You measure with a caliper the diameter at the end of the chamber and than you cut from a stiff paper one piece with the measured width and a length of ca. 76mm=
3 inch and insert the paperstrip into the chamber.When you feel some resistance you mark with a pencil and than maesure again with caliper and you know your chamber length,
regards Johann

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: Collath_500BPE]
      #85834 - 18/09/07 07:53 AM

Thankyou for all the information. Rifle Ammo (S&B), Shot Shells (gamebore), and dies are on the way. Maybe this weekend I will give it a try.

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #86570 - 04/10/07 05:06 AM

I purchased ammunition for this gun and shot it some last week. The rifle ammo is Sellier & Bellot (spelling may be wrong). The bullets are 173 grain and with this light gun not so fun to shoot. I was able to get a nice 1" or so group at 50m so I thoght that was ok. It pierces the primer on each shot though. Once a piece of primer brass got stuck to the front of the firing pin and it would not shoot anymore until I pulled it off. The firing pin face was rough so i took it out and rounded it over nicely. These loads seem very hot to me. i think I may just pull the bullets and load them with 140 grain bullets that are loaded on the light end.

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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
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Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: PeteDeal]
      #86608 - 04/10/07 05:37 PM

Pete,

Not a 7x65 R but I have an 8mm Mauser rifle with which I had the same experience that you had with Sellier and Bellot ammunition. My rifle shoots several other brands without any trouble, both American as well as Prvi Partizan and some EUropean military stuff, but when a friend gave me some S&B 196 grain ammunition, after the first round was fired, I felt the rifle kick much harder than it normally does. The bolt got stuck so tight that I had to wait for a cease fire at the range and get the help of my friend who had given me the ammunition in opening it.

I spoke later to a friend in Europe who has been involved in ammunition manufacture and he told me that S&B had recently decided to "rationalise" their ammunition lines by reducing the number of different powders they use from 24 to 7. Your experience does not seem to be unique because the Brits seem to call the company's products Sh!t and
Bo!!0cks these days. The company had a good reputation in the past but the bean counters seem determined to destroy this. Please try other brands and you should be OK.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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peter
removed


Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #86611 - 04/10/07 06:03 PM

pete

here in denmark i only use S&B for cheap practice ammo because thats what it is, some of it is loaded quite hot and the quality control is lacking a lot but the cases are good for reloading.

peter

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PeteDeal
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Reged: 11/09/07
Posts: 11
Loc: WV
Re: Ferlach Combination Gun Questions [Re: peter]
      #86718 - 07/10/07 04:11 AM

I decided that instead of punishing myself and gun for the rest of the box to pull the bullets and start over. I put new primers in, a charge of surplus military 4895 that was on the light end of what is recommended for a similar 280 remington loading, and 140 grain bullets. I shot a few and no pieced primers. Also, much more pleasant to shoot. Thanks again!

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