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I assume that regulation of the O/U rifles is much easier to accomplish than with the SxS variety. Does that also mean that O/U rifles are less affected by load changes?

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The sliver and Golden Sable UXO rifles are great for under $9000 and Beretta make a beautiful high grade SXS Double rifle which I think is worth over 40000.

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I remember when that one was sold. I wish I had made a run on it. Nice going. When was it built?

Armbar.

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I remember when that one was sold. I wish I had made a run on it. Nice going. When was it built?

Armbar.

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Which gun are you referring to?

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I was referring to the Beretta 455.

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I remember when that one was sold. I wish I had made a run on it. Nice going. When was it built?

Armbar.

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Which gun are you referring to?

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I was referring to the Beretta 455.

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OK---I wasn't sure since there were a couple of guns being disussed in this thread. Anyway, my gun was made in 1999 and according to Beretta was shipped to the NYC Beretta store in 2001. It was initially sold sometime after that and I got it about 3 years ago.
About a month before I bought this particular gun it was featured in both The Double Gun Journal and Sporting Classics. Of course I had to save those issues!
I've taken it to Africa once and will have it back there again next year if the Tanzanian gov't straightens up their act.

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Again, nice going. Beautiful rifle.

Armbar.

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Thanks, Armbar. You don't see many of these guns around and I suspect it has to do with the quality of the work Beretta had put into them which pushed their retail prices up near the high end English guns. At that price point I think the appeal and nostalgia of the English guns gave them an advantage in resale valuations, even though most think the Beretta guns were very comparable to their British cousins in design and quality.
Another interesting aspect of Beretta's foray into the market for high quality doubles is that the base design of the guns was that of Famars , also known as Abbiatico and Salvinelli (A&S). You'll see that the Famars' Venus double rifle pictured below is highly similar to mine, except for the obvious differences in finish. It was in the finishing process that I believe the gun move from the hands of A&S and over to Beretta.
Anyway, I really like mine and was pleased to find one at a much better price than was commonly charged for a new one in NYC or Dallas.

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I had a Beretta 689 o/u 9.3x74R with a set of 20ga barrels. I thought I'd found gun nirvana, until the rib came loose from the rifle barrels. The "customer service" I received from Beretta was, to be kind;pathetic. They contracted out the repair to Simmons(who's "customer service" was almost as bad as Beretta's). The Simmons repaired rib promptly peeled on about the sixth shot. After repeatedly being given the run around both over the phone, and in person at the Beretta booth at the SHOT show, I paid JJ at Champlin to fix it, and he did a superb job. I then sold it off, and would not take another Beretta product for free! I also wouldn't have Simmons repair a BB gun, let alone a fine arm. You wanted both good and bad, so there's some bad!

Jeff

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Jeff do you know, or did they say what caused the rib to seperate? What ammo were you shooting in the rifle,with what bullet? Just curious, I like to collect any data on any thing that happens to cause a double rifle to fail, in any way!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Thanks for the quick response.
I assume that regulation of the O/U rifles is much easier to accomplish than with the SxS variety. Does that also mean that O/U rifles are less affected by load changes?

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Trey The regulation difficulty is not a worry to you, as the owner, because that is done at the factory!

The using of the word REGULATING , interchangeably with working up loads for a double rifle, is where the great bulk of misunderstanding of how double rifles work comes from!

The regulating of a double rifle is a physical process of building the barrels sets with the proper convergence so that the rifle shoots properly. The fact that the barrels physically converge is taken by many to mean that the bullet paths converge also, and they do not! The properly loaded side by side, or Over Under double rifle the centers of each barrel’s individual group remain parallel down range, and the center of each barrel’s group do not cross if the load is right. The misconception that they do cross at a given point is incorrect. This misconception comes from the knowledge that the barrels physically converge, and the writers who write for the gun rags who mistakenly believer this because the adds for the rifles state that the rifle is regulated AT 100 MTRS, or 50 MTRS, an they take that to mean the bullets cross at that distance. This is also, incorrect! What the distance stated means that is the distance the STANDING iron sight is cut (REGULATED) for, for elevation, and windage for the center of a composite group of both barrels. The rifle may have several flip-up sights for longer ranges, yet the centerline of these sights are all in line with each other. If the bullets crossed at 100mtrs, how would these sights line up to 200, and 300 mtrs. Many writers assume these flip-ups are strictly for decoration, and are useless. If the load is proper, these sights will be dead on at the ranges engraved on them.

The difference between the O/U, and the S/S double rifles where regulation is concerned, is simply that the recoil arc is different, but the loads still must place the hits on the target parallel. The top barrel above the bottom barrel, and in line for windage, for the O/U. With the S/S, the barrels must print the barrels side by side at the same elevation. The barrels are still sensitive to bullet weight, shape, and speed, no matter the configuration! If the load is too slow, it will shoot apart, and high, if it is too fast they will cross, and shoot low this is true of both types!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Nosler Partition bullets

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Jeff

I don't know the "Oryx" bullet and whether it is also a partition type bullet? But I believe H partition style bullets can cause some problems.

Perhaps someone else more knowledgable can contribute.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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My opinion, and this was confirmed by JJ Perdou at Champlin, when he repaired it, was that it was caused by a contaminated/poorly done solder joint. JJ supected that the "repair" consisted of simply reheating the old/bad joint. When he did the repair, he removed the entire rib, cleaned it down to bare metal, and started from scratch. His work was first rate.

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No, the Oryx is a conventional bonded core soft. It isn't an H section or solid shank bullet, so no problem there.

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... and Nosler Partition bullets ...

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But the Nosler Partitions also used as mentioned above are a H section bullet. Maybe you or another could comment on whether this is an issue (ie using H section/solid shank bullets) in double rifles? Thanks.

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John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I think the "Partitions are bad for doubles" is an old wives tale, that keeps getting repeated. I know several people who shoot them in doubles with no problems whatsoever. Also, the rib came off after the Simmons repair, while shooting factory Norma ammo(non H-style). I shot Partitions after the Champlin repair, and the rib stuck to the barrel like bark on a tree.

Granted, I wouldn't shoot mono-solids in a double, but Partitions don't worry me. The 9.3 in particular, as it still has the old style relief groove cut over the partition.

Jeff

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I agree Jeff, there is no reason not to shoot Nosler Partitions in a double rifle! The problems have come from solid Brass mono-metel bullets like the Barnes Super Solids, and the A-square monolithic solids. The north Fork, and GS custom copper bullets, with the presure grouves cut in the solid body of the bullet, to allow the rifleing to engrave the shank, with some place for the displaced metel to go, and OK for double rifles. The partition has only a small section for the ewb between the front, and back, and poses no problems in a double rifle. The Swift A-Frame, is getting close to being too solid in the middle, and I do not use them in my doubles. I do use the NF, GSC, and Nosler Partitions in all my rifles, doubles included!

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..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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No, the Oryx is a conventional bonded core soft. It isn't an H section or solid shank bullet, so no problem there.

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400NE

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... and Nosler Partition bullets ...

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But the Nosler Partitions also used as mentioned above are a H section bullet. Maybe you or another could comment on whether this is an issue (ie using H section/solid shank bullets) in double rifles? Thanks.

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John:

I strongly believe that some partition type bullets can be a problem. Ross Seyfried has said the same thing. He wrote that he won't use any mono, solid shank, or H section bullet in a double. I've never tried the Nosler in a double rifle, so don't know if they're a problem. Likewise, I see no earthly need to find out - there are plenty of fine bonded core softs available. I did buy some Swift A-Frames once and ended up giving them away rather than using them in the intended double. The center of the H section of that bullet is incredibly hard.

Of course, any solid shank bullet, or any bullet with a particulary hard H section presents essentially the same problem as a mono, as they all resist compression in the bore. Mac is a friend, but I disagree STRONGLY about the use of the so-called driving band monos in a double rifle.

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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This is an interesting thread. Perhaps it would be helpful for the posters to note the vintage of the dg they own and shoot. This information may be most helpful; eg. older more delicate dg versus new more robust dg. I shoot and hunt with my newer dg, and have no problem with mono nor any other kind of bullets. I am getting the impression from this thread that the older English dg require a lot of tlc and caution regarding bullet content and powder.

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Dear Nitro 400, It would be most helpful if you would post the maker and vintage of the dg that you have personally shot monos and other inappropriate bulets through and ruined. It would be even better to know which mono bullets. Also, what damage was seen on the rifle immediately after the "event". This infomation would help the rest of us without your personal extensive testing know which gun/bullet combinations to avoid purchasing. This would be very, very valuable data. Regards.

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No, the Oryx is a conventional bonded core soft. It isn't an H section or solid shank bullet, so no problem there.

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400NE

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... and Nosler Partition bullets ...

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But the Nosler Partitions also used as mentioned above are a H section bullet. Maybe you or another could comment on whether this is an issue (ie using H section/solid shank bullets) in double rifles? Thanks.

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John:

I strongly believe that some partition type bullets can be a problem. Ross Seyfried has said the same thing. He wrote that he won't use any mono, solid shank, or H section bullet in a double. I've never tried the Nosler in a double rifle, so don't know if they're a problem. Likewise, I see no earthly need to find out - there are plenty of fine bonded core softs available. I did buy some Swift A-Frames once and ended up giving them away rather than using them in the intended double. The center of the H section of that bullet is incredibly hard.

Of course, any solid shank bullet, or any bullet with a particulary hard H section presents essentially the same problem as a mono, as they all resist compression in the bore. Mac is a friend, but I disagree STRONGLY about the use of the so-called driving band monos in a double rifle.

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400NE

Thanks for answering my post.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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This is an interesting thread. Perhaps it would be helpful for the posters to note the vintage of the dg they own and shoot. This information may be most helpful; eg. older more delicate dg versus new more robust dg. I shoot and hunt with my newer dg, and have no problem with mono nor any other kind of bullets. I am getting the impression from this thread that the older English dg require a lot of tlc and caution regarding bullet content and powder. Is factory ammo a problem with the older dg? Do all the owners of these guns reload? I would really like to know. thanks, I truly appreciate the diverse knowledge and opinons expressed here. I would really like to read more first hand accounts of actual problems and solutions, etc.

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africa1,

I know of an example of a DR that is used to shoot monometal bullets such as Barnes X. I have seen comments that they too work fine with no problems. However the rifling is also showing on the outside of this DR's barrels.

No I won't be giving the precise info as it is private.

A lot of threads and posts on this forum give you what you ask. Do a search.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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I recall the listing of your rifle also Spring. Almost made a pass but ended up with my Marcel Thys sidelock. You surely bought a nice rifle.

JPK

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I recall the listing of your rifle also Spring. Almost made a pass but ended up with my Marcel Thys sidelock. You surely bought a nice rifle.

JPK

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You know you woulden't like this rifle it is a heavey pigger.470 N.E. Weight 11 1/4 lbs.
Sorrey I just coulden't resist.
Bill

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You are correct, that is why I bought my Thys, which while a quarter pound overweight, at 10 1/2lbs, was more attractive to me than the A&S/Beretta 470 at 11 1/4lbs.

On the other hand, I did buy an A&S sidelock 375H&H which weighs a more proper for cartidge, to me, 8lbs 10oz.

If only I could afford one of the three new H&H rifles listed by H&H, the 9lb 470, or the 10lb 465H&H or even the 10lb 2oz 465H&H. Either would be the ultimate rifle at the ultimate weight.

Oh, and for a similar price I passed on a left handed H&H 375Flanged because it weighed 10lbs 2oz. (The A&S was less purchase price but more total cost once I paid to have it converted to left hand use.)

JPK

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eg. older more delicate dg versus new more robust dg. I shoot and hunt with my newer dg, and have no problem with mono nor any other kind of bullets.

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eg. older more delicate dg versus new more robust dg. I shoot and hunt with my newer dg, and have no problem with mono nor any other kind of bullets.

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IMHO it is not just a matter of old versus new, it is a matter of barrel thickness as much as metal strength. At the end of the day, I don't believe that at NE speeds, monometals are really needed when perfectly good FMJ solids are available. At faster speeds I can see the point, but most often this implies bolt rifles with thicker barrels anyway.
At the price of a new H&H or WR, I don't think many will try the new versus old theory either!

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My experience is 180* opposite. Flat nose mono solids far outpenetrate round nose solids. So at the relatively modest NE velocities the flat nose solids provide a significant increase in effectiveness while the round nose steel jacketed solids out of, say, a 458 Lott or 470 Mbogo rather than a 450NE or 470NE, leave nothing to be desired in the first place and the improved penetration of the flat nose solids is immaterial.

But the former North Forks and current GS Custom flat nose solids are driving band bullets and safe in a double anyway since the shank of the bullet is at or below diameter between lands.

JPK

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