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unspellable
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Webley & Scott Screw Action???
      #84097 - 16/08/07 03:40 AM

I have a William Evans with what I believe to be a Webley and Scott hammerless top lever box lock action circa 1907-'08. No ejectors. On looking at the face I do NOT see screw threads on the spindle. There is a flange near the top of the spindle that engages a third bite on the doll's head. So what action do I have? The lumps look like the standard double bite type.

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84099 - 16/08/07 03:52 AM



Can you post a photo or 2 ?

Makes it alot easier.

If you can:-
- Top down photo, gun closed
- Side On of action, gun open and closed

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84105 - 16/08/07 08:08 AM

Quote:

I have a William Evans with what I believe to be a Webley and Scott hammerless top lever box lock action circa 1907-'08. No ejectors. On looking at the face I do NOT see screw threads on the spindle. There is a flange near the top of the spindle that engages a third bite on the doll's head. So what action do I have? The lumps look like the standard double bite type.



From the top, is the doll's head shaped like the ace of clubs, or is it shaped like a spade with the point clipped off? The one with the club head extension is called the PHV-1. The one with the spade head extension is called the A & W C. Yours is probably the PHV-1. Webley referred to the A & W C as a screw-grip, and the PHV-1 as a third bite. Technically, they're both screw grips, as the name refers to the way they lock, and has nothing to do with the threads on the spindle body visible through the action face. Both were referred to as screw grips in the trade.

As to your date, from that period, Webley's number will be on the side of the fore-end loop, just under the left barrel. What is it? If it's on the short rib (between the flats and the loop) and below the high 11,400 range, it's earlier than that.

Generally, these Webley boxlock DRs that were built for other gunmakers were mostly delivered complete. I don't recall seeing one built for Evans that wasn't.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (16/08/07 08:49 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84114 - 16/08/07 09:17 PM

400NITRO--

YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF DOUBLES IS IMPRESSIVE TO SAY THE LEAST..

RIPP

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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unspellable
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84116 - 16/08/07 10:32 PM

You make it sound like a PHV-1. My date of circa 1907-'08 is based on the W&C serial number on the fore end loop vs a list of serial numbers I saw some where. (Don't have the numbers here at the office.) Any body have dates for Evans' numbers?

How broad a term is "screw grip"? I've seen non-W&C actions that could be described as having a flange on the spindle to engage a third bite, often a rib extension rather than a doll's head..

How "complete" would it have been when it went from W&C to Evans? Stocked? (Guess you have to stock it before you can regulate it.) Finish? Engraving? It has the "Wm. Evans from Purdey" and the Wm. Evans serial number engraving on it.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84131 - 17/08/07 04:36 AM

The Evans numbers for 1907 and 1908 would run between roughly 8,100 to 9,500.

With regard to how complete it was, I'd have to see it to be sure, but all I've seen were actually finished by Webley. If you'll recall, I own an Evans that's the same model and caliber as yours. What you have is a readily identifiable Webley model, with Webley's serial number on the barrels. The way it was done in the trade in those days leaves two choices from there. Either Evans bought it in as a proven barreled action in the white, and stocked and finished it themselves, or they bought it in complete.

Specific to Evans, the general consensus in the trade is that Evans wasn't finishing any of these.

With respect to the many of these that Webley made for the trade, there is often a way to tell. A gun "bought in" as a barreled action in the white is not engraved. It requires many, many hours of bench time before it is ready to be engraved - much chisel and file work still needs to be done, after which it is stocked, and then polished. Only then is it ready for engraving, at which time it is almost complete. The engraving pattern tells the tale. The same border engraving pattern or full converage engraving pattern that appear on the boxlock DRs that Webley retailed themselves also appear on the same model rifles that were built complete for Evans, Army & Navy, Gibbs, Holland & Holland, Alex Henry, Lang (which was owned by the Webley brothers), London Sporting Park, Rigby, etc., ad nauseum. Of course, all of those will have Webley numbers on them. With the exception of a rifle or two bought in from Wilkes, I've never seen a pre-war boxlock Evans DR that didn't have a Webley engraving pattern on it.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84133 - 17/08/07 04:51 AM

Quote:

How broad a term is "screw grip"? I've seen non-W&C actions that could be described as having a flange on the spindle to engage a third bite, often a rib extension rather than a doll's head..



Fairly broad I suppose. Some attempt to apply a much narrower meaning to it, which simply isn't reality.

Look closely at the fore-end fastener on your rifle. Study how it works. That's Wilkinson Sword Co.'s screw-grip fore-end fastener patent from 1866. Often associated with Rigby, it does appear that Wilkinson sold it to Rigby sometime later.

Compare it to the top fastener on your rifle. It's an obvious, direct crib on the earlier (and by then expired) Wilkinson patent. That's what a screw-grip is.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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enfieldspares
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84137 - 17/08/07 07:09 AM

Many years ago I had access to be able to view ALL the remaining, existing, Webley registers. Not only the production of the .455 Mk VI, the Fosbery, the .32s, etc., etc., but also the "day books". It was quite interesting to note that many, many William Evens guns were supplied by Webley.

What I vividly remember were the number of Evans' guns noted in the registers as "Third quality...Engraved and finished as First"!

Also against one Birmingham maker, no longer extant, "All guns cash only...no further credit"!

It was also interesting to note that the experimental Farqhaur-Hill and another rifle "trialled" by the British Army (which I can't recall the name of) were made by Webley, too.

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unspellable
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: enfieldspares]
      #84164 - 17/08/07 11:11 PM

All this causes one to wonder who should really be described as the manufacturer. Especially for purposes of filling out the federal forms, registration, etc.

Are we assuming that W&S engraved the "William Evans (From Purdey's)" on it? That would have to be done before blueing. I will have to go back and look at the style and quality of engraving for that phrase as opposed to the chambering engraving.

Wm. Evans #9237 W&S #11906 (It's upside down, I almost read it as 90611)

As an aside, I once saw a Wm. Evans single shot chambered for the 400-360 Purdey that had far and away the most fabulous case hardening finish on the action that I've ever seen. (Memory's a bit slack, I don't recall if it was the original finish.) It was incredible, not to be believed even looking at it and an order of magnitude better than the best of any other case coloring I've ever seen.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84171 - 18/08/07 12:19 AM

Quote:

Are we assuming that W&S engraved the "William Evans (From Purdey's)" on it? That would have to be done before blueing.



...and the retailer's name engraved on the action before case HARDENING. With rust blacking the barrels, it's quite possible to do it afterwards and touch up, but I don't think it was done that way often. Webley definitely did it all for the retailers that weren't gunmakers (Army & Navy and others), so it wasn't an issue to do so for the retailers who were. The rest of it was economics. Boxlocks (and sidelocks too) were bought in because Birmingham could meet the quality standard and wholesale them profitably to the retailers at a price that permitted the retailers to mark them up as much as 100%. It didn't make any sense to cut the profit by spending London rate card finishing them. Thats why it isn't surprising that the Webley records show the vast majority of the shotguns built for others (for which the records survive) going out complete. In my research of the double rifles (for which Webley's records don't survive), I'm seeing the same thing.

For government purposes, I think the "manufacturer" would be the retailer - it has their name and serial on it. Sure, it has Webley's number on it too, but not their name

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (18/08/07 02:25 AM)

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clark7781
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: Ripp]
      #84201 - 18/08/07 12:05 PM

Quote:

400NITRO--

YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF DOUBLES IS IMPRESSIVE TO SAY THE LEAST..

RIPP



If you think that is impressive, know that at DRSS hunts, he spouts this stuff off from memory; he is not just reading info from books.

"Impressive" doesn't do what he knows justice!!!!!

--------------------
Clark

Double Rifle Shooters Society
.500 NE and .577 NE

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470evans
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: clark7781]
      #84224 - 18/08/07 11:57 PM

Unspellable,

If I remember correctly, your Evans is a 400/360. Have you worked out a load yet?

I have a William Evans 400/360 from 1903 with the same "William Evans from Purdeys" engraved on the frame. It's a Webley A&W C with ejectors and intercepting sears. It has the Webley # on the short rib. It's in its original case and was built for Lord Rothes. If you contact William Evans they will provide information about your gun. http://www.williamevans.com/

I'm a fan of any of the Webley built doubles, regardless of whose name is engraved on the side.


As you've read, if you do a search on this forum, it's important to slug the bores as there can be a difference with this caliber. I've been fortunate with my two, one slugs .3645 and the other .365.

The 400/360 has become my favorite double caliber. Easy to get brass for, easy to load and easy to shoot. So far I've killed 3 Hogs with the 400/360, they all dropped in their tracks with one shot. My last two were a right and a left double at the DRSS hunt in June. I shot my first Hog with a 250gr Nosler Ballistic Tip that blew up but killed the Hog, I won't use that bullet again. #2 and #3 were with the 286gr Woodleigh round nose.

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unspellable
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 470evans]
      #84372 - 21/08/07 10:35 PM

Mine has the "Wm. Evans (From Purdey's)" on one barrel.

I must confess to not having worked up a good load for it. I slugged the barrels and they are 0.3665 inch. Probably the ideal size for the original bullet reputed to be 0.367 inch. A tad over sized for today's 0.366 bullets. I have some 285 grain bullets of German make and recently some 300 grain soft points from a US custom maker.

Do you find you can get both barrels together with lighter bullets?

I'd be interested to hear what you are using for loads.

I've been modifiying 9.3x74R brass. I find Bertram brass to be hopeless.

It's odd that no decent 400-360 brass is avaiable as it's actally a fairly common caliber. Purdey states that it was their most popular caliber in its class at the time. There must be a 100 400-360s around for every 600 Nitro but you can buy 600 Nitro brass.

One odd incident. I had a round in which the primer went off but the powder didn't. The primer drove the bullet about six inches up the barrel. This allowed the powder to spill out of the case when I opened the action. I found that I could not close the action so long as there was even one flake of powder left in it. I won't list the load since you wouldn't want it when facing down an enraged hog.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: unspellable]
      #84381 - 22/08/07 03:17 AM

It isn't just the lack of ready made brass that's odd, it's also odd that a 300 grain RN .366" bullet isn't available for the .400/.360 Purdey. Woodleigh even makes a 320 grain for the .360 No. 2, but no 300 grain for the Purdey, which is vastly more common. Only the Swift A-Frame is available in that weight, and I won't use that bullet in a double rifle. It isn't really appropriate for a .400/.360 anyway.

Dieter Horneber makes the brass. Several of us got together an order through Huntington's, and it looks to be good brass. I'll admit that I bought mine just to have properly headstamped brass on hand in the event I ever needed it, but otherwise never use it. The RWS 9.3 brass is just too easy and indestructable.

Between good friends and myself, there are four .400/.360 Purdey doubles - three Evans and one Lang - all of which are Webley products. We're all loading IMR 4350. I've had mine a long time, and have tried most appropriate powders, but found IMR 4350 the clear winner. I usually use custom 300 grain bullets over 51.5 to 56.5 grains. I always work up over a chronograph, and yes, lot to lot density of that powder DOES vary that much, so I can't be any more precise than that. I've always used Federal 210 primers and still do, but am running low and can't find any more.

I've used 270 grain Speer, 285 and 286 grain RWS, Woodleigh, and others, 293 grain TUG, 300 grain Barnes Original spitzers, and 300 grain Hawk RN. I'm currently using the Hawk. In my rifle, the 270, 285, 286 and 293 grain bullets have always shot acceptably well over the same charge I use for the 300 grain.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84542 - 24/08/07 03:29 AM

From enfieldspares--
"What I vividly remember were the number of Evans' guns noted in the registers as "Third quality...Engraved and finished as First"!

How can one determine the quality(1st.2nd, 3rd) of a W&S made vintage Double with a screw action by examining the gun?? What characteristics seperated the different qualities?

Did other retailers besides Evans do-- "3rd quality...finish as first"??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (24/08/07 03:31 AM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #84546 - 24/08/07 05:08 AM

Quote:

From enfieldspares--

Did other retailers besides Evans do-- "3rd quality...finish as first"??




Purdey, Rigby at least made different grades of guns
and some called them 3rd Grade, oters Grade C, D etc.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #84547 - 24/08/07 06:04 AM

More questions from the uninformed--

I agree that Americans are hung up on names on Doubles--

Webley made guns others just retailed-
What characteristics define the Webley guns no matter the retailer?

I'm sure every Double guy would love to find one from a unusual retailer for a bargain price!!

Kinda hard I'm sure cause Double experts have probably located and secured most of those guns.

What prices are we talking about for a "lesser" name first quality Double instead of one of the big 4?? I presume that a 470 NE would be the most common caliber--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #84552 - 24/08/07 09:42 AM

Quote:

More questions from the uninformed--

I agree that Americans are hung up on names on Doubles--

Webley made guns others just retailed-
What characteristics define the Webley guns no matter the retailer?



You just have to learn what they look like, and what the Webley serial number ranges were. A good start is the Webley catalogue in the Photos Archive here. The numbers for the Nitro guns ran from roughly 10,000 in 1900 to just under 14,000 in 1927. I've never found a later gun. The number will be located on the short rib (between the flats and the loop) up to about 11,400 in 1906, when it was moved to the left side of the fore-end loop. In the 11,300 to 11,500 range, it can be in either place.

Quote:

I'm sure every Double guy would love to find one from a unusual retailer for a bargain price!!

Kinda hard I'm sure cause Double experts have probably located and secured most of those guns.

What prices are we talking about for a "lesser" name first quality Double instead of one of the big 4?? I presume that a 470 NE would be the most common caliber--



Prices will be all over the place. Some less than competent dealers will price an otherwise nice piece from a lesser quality trade maker with a big name on it way over the top. Likewise, a sharp dealer will price a "no-name" from a good trade maker at what it's really worth, and he's not wrong. Given a well-informed buyer and seller, the difference today is nothing like what it once was.

It's silly to price a D class Rigby built by Osborne (like Westley Richards has) $10,000+ more than an A & W C 2nd Quality (the highest grade Webley commonly encountered) built for Army & Navy would reasonably bring in similar condition, but it's done all the time.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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hoppdoc
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #84553 - 24/08/07 09:57 AM

Would the SCI meet in Reno in Jan be a time to handle/find W&S quality doubles at a better price? Other than Safaris, is it worth the trip for gun hunting??

I have cruised the net for Doubles--Champlins, WR,G&H,Hallowell,The Gun Room,GunsInternational--

Anyone know any honeyholes out there I have missed?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #84556 - 24/08/07 10:15 AM


hopdoc,

As I have said often on here and other forums,
If you hang around for a "better price", DR's will
just keep on passing you by.

Demand outstrips supply, so prices keep going up
so the longer you wait, the higher the price goes.

And I don't think your going to see any bargains
at SCI - why would they, they seem to have more
buyers than guns - except those that are often
said to be overpriced like WR !

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bonanza
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #84560 - 24/08/07 10:54 AM

Champlins is a place where you will get a good gun at a fair price. George prices his guns to move, but will not deal in trash.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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500Nitro
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: bonanza]
      #84561 - 24/08/07 11:30 AM

Quote:

Champlins is a place where you will get a good gun at a fair price. George prices his guns to move, but will not deal in trash.




Agreed.

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Ripp
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Re: Webley & Scott Screw Action??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #84584 - 24/08/07 10:20 PM

Agree as well, plus George is a hoot to visit with--doesn't mince words much..

Hoppdoc--YES, it is still worth your trip to go--I have gone every year for the past 5 years--it is overwhelming to say the least---be prepared to spend a minimum of 2 days as it is far too large to cover in one day---and yes, some deals can be made--but only if the item is still around on the last day--I bought a double there last year--again on the last day--feel like a got a fair price and so did the seller--the gun works great and shoots even better--

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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