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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Rifles
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MoRat
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.243 or 7mm
      #83634 - 07/08/07 11:49 AM

Hey guys first post here, from Australia and just wanted your opinion on what calibre to get, I've been trying to decide for weeks but can't. I'm a field hunter mainly, shooting medium pigs, dogs, deer, hoppy things , and any other pests. Another reason I wanted to ask is because I'm only a small bloke, 65kg's (no fat at all) so I don't want to much recoil, that's why I'm leaning towards the .243. I got talked out of .270 simply because of ammo options and that it has more recoil than the .308, so thought I'd ask about the 7mm, is the recoil severe? Is there many ammo options? I made my mind up on my new rifle, it will be a Remington Model 700 SPS Stainless with a Leupold VX-1 4-12x40 scope, so it will be a light rifle, another reason recoil is an issue.

Cheers for any replies

Edited by MoRat (07/08/07 11:55 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: MoRat]
      #83637 - 07/08/07 12:05 PM

I am assuming you are referring to the 7mm Magnum--I am in the US and typically when someone refers to the 7mm that is what they are referring to. If you are worried about recoil and were talked out of a .270 because of ammo options I would suggest the .280 or a 7x57 --you can use all the same bullets as with a 7mm--much less recoil than the 7mm and it shoots wonderfully flat...I have used and owned a .280 for years.. have shot everything from Pronghorn antelope to deer to elk and coyotes.. if meat preservation is of concern you will need to choose your bullet carefully, however with all the choices available in this caliber that would not be a problem--

Ripp

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MoRat
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83639 - 07/08/07 12:12 PM

I didn't know they made a 7mm magnum, I've seen a picture of a cartridge next to a .270, it was vertually the same length just a little rounder. It said 7mm under it, not 7mm magnum

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NE450No2
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: MoRat]
      #83640 - 07/08/07 12:20 PM

Get a 308.
Light recoil, accurate and a great killer.

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MoRat
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: NE450No2]
      #83641 - 07/08/07 12:23 PM

Quote:

Get a 308.
Light recoil, accurate and a great killer.



I don't want to blow things up, I want them to still b in one piece, I also shoot rabbits and small varmints aswell, a .308 would demolish them

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: MoRat]
      #83646 - 07/08/07 01:34 PM

I don't want to blow things up, I want them to still b in one piece, I also shoot rabbits and small varmints aswell, a .308 would demolish them

So will a 243.

There are two 7mm cartridges commonly available in a wide range of rifles and they are the 7mm-08 and 7mm Remington Magnum. The 7mm you were referring to was probably the 280 Remington. This is basically the same case as used in the 270 but uses .284 bullets (7mm) as opposed to .277 bullets (270). The 280 Remington is not widely available.

The 7mm-08 uses the same case as the 308 but it is necked to use 7mm (.284) bullets. Performance is very similar to the 308. The 7mm-08 shoots bullets that are a little bit lighter than generally used in the 308 and at slightly greater velocities.

The 7mm Remington Magnum is much more powerful and its recoil and muzzle blast is considerably greater than the 270.

Any of the centrefires calibres from 223 and up will blow a rabbit to pieces and will also take foxes apart.

Perhaps the ideal for you would be a 243 and a 22 rimfire

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MoRat
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #83650 - 07/08/07 03:30 PM

Ok I know rabbits will get destroyed no matter what, i should have just said I don't wanna go to .308, so let me get this right, the 7mm magnum is the a .270 necked to a 7mm, and the 7mm-08 is a .308 necked down to 7mm, correct?

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: MoRat]
      #83651 - 07/08/07 04:10 PM

No, the 7mm Remington Magnum is a much bigger case than the 270. The 7mm Remington Magnum is about the same length as the 270 case but bigger in diameter and holds about 25% more powder.

and the 7mm-08 is a .308 necked down to 7mm, correct? Correct

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ozhunter
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #83654 - 07/08/07 07:42 PM

On the week end I saw a beautiful timbered KIMBER 7mm08.
That would be my recommendation.
A friend has one in 308. Very nice rifle.

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #83658 - 07/08/07 09:21 PM

I would agree, the 7-08 is a very good caliber. Over here, we have a lot of our younger shooter use one as a deer/elk rifle and it typically works very well. Several seasons ago, a friend of mine had his son shoot his first elk during a "youth hunt" here in Montana.. One shot and the young bull dropped in his tracks--

However, this is NOT a caliber for rabbits--having said that, with again, the wide range of bullets available for the 7mm caliber, this would be a very good selection.

Finally, here in the US, the 280 Remington is very available and is used quite frequently as a caliber available for custom mountain rifles used for sheep, goat, deer mountains hunts..

Ripp

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Tatume
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: ozhunter]
      #83660 - 07/08/07 09:52 PM

> I made my mind up on my new rifle, it will be a Remington Model 700 SPS Stainless with a Leupold
> VX-1 4-12x40 scope, so it will be a light rifle, another reason recoil is an issue.

The Remington Model 700 SPS Stainless is available in 223 Rem, 22-250 Rem, 308 Win, 25-06 Rem, 270 WSM, 300 WSM, 300 Rem Ultra Mag, 243 Win, 270 Win, 7mm Rem Mag, 30-06, and 300 Win Mag. The blue version is also available in 7mm-08 Remington, but not the stainless version. I recommend against anything smaller than 243 Win for the animals you wish to hunt (with factory ammo). All of the cartridges larger than the 243 Win have substantially more recoil (in full-power loadings). Reduced-recoil options are available.

The 243 Win is a very versatile cartridge, for which there is a very large selection of component bullets and loaded ammunition. In the hands of an excellent hunter and shooter, and with the correct choice of bullets, it will work well on animals from 1 to 100 kg, and to ranges of more than 300 m. Depending on bullet choice, small animals can be destroyed or pelts and meat preserved. The 243 Win has a reputation as a wounding cartridge if used by inexperienced hunters, due to the small bullet diameter. The reputation is probably undeserved, as poorly placed shots have the same (undesired) effect no matter the cartridge.

I recommend against the Leupold VX-1 scope, and suggest you spend the additional money and get the VX-III instead. The VX-1 scopes that I own are satisfactory, but the VX-III series scopes are much better. My personal choice on most of my hunting rifles is the VX-III 2.5-8x 36mm scope. In my opinion, this is the best all-around hunting scope on the market.

Take care, Tom

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John303
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83662 - 07/08/07 09:56 PM

IMHO I think your "lean" towards a .243/7x57 is in the right direction. Both are very versatile especially if you load your own, however both will blow things up to some extent especially in the lower bullet wght. loadings, very difficult to get around that aspect of your choices. If however risk of a richochet is not of geat concern you can use the 105 grainer in the 243 to you get around the hamburger issue somewhat. Not to belittle any of the calibres suggested but when recoil is an issue the lighter the better. You should also throw availability of not only ammo. but also reloading components into the mix and in both of your choices I don't think you would have a problem. BTW welcome.--- John303

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iqbal
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: John303]
      #83663 - 07/08/07 10:16 PM

I think you guys are missing out on another excellent cartridge which will suit our friend i.e, the 22.250.Ideal for all small game upto dear,good velocity and no recoil.

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karluk
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: iqbal]
      #83669 - 08/08/07 12:50 AM

If you are going to reload you can get full metal jacket (FMJ) bullets for the .243 & .308, reduced loads with FMJ bullets should considerably reduce blowing things up. I'm not aware of FMJ's for 7mm, nor do I know what the factory load options are for FMJ's in .243 or .308, it might be worth checking into.
Good Luck,
Karluk

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xausa
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: MoRat]
      #83673 - 08/08/07 01:15 AM

On one of my trips to Africa I was accompanied by my girl friend whom I tried to get interested in hunting. I built her a classy little 7X57 on a G33-40 Mauser action, with a 22" barrel patterned on the Winchester pre-'64 featherweight barrel, with a classic style stock and a short schnable foreend.

She never shot the little jewel, but I did, and fell in love with it. I killed game up to Wildebeest size and as recently as last year killed two white tail does in less than a minute at about 200 yards, shooting standing, unsupported.

Around here there's a fairly good availability of S&B ammunition. I assume the same is the case in Oz, if you're interested in factory loads. European 7X57 ammunition is loaded to much higher performance levels supposedly because American ammunition makers are acutely aware of the number of Mauser 93 and Remington rolling block rifles chambered for that caliber still in circulation. If you handload, of course, the sky's the limit.

In my opinion, the 7mm-08 is a dead issue. Ammunition is hard to find in this country and I expect it will soon go the way of another very nice 7mm, the .284 Winchester. Ditto for the .280 Remington.

If you stick with your choice of rifle, be aware that Remington 700's have bolt handles which are silver soldered on and it is not at all unusual for them to break loose at a most inopportune moment. I don't know about the availability of CZ rifles in Oz, but I would give them a look.

My German correspondents are unhappy with the idea of shooting even medium pigs with anything less than a 7mm, and I would be unhappy with anything less than .35 caliber, but that's just me. To me, 7X57 is the best of all possible worlds. WDM Bell used one to shoot elephants, but he was a hell of a shot and a student of elephant anatomy.

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: xausa]
      #83680 - 08/08/07 01:51 AM

Quote:

If you stick with your choice of rifle, be aware that Remington 700's have bolt handles which are silver soldered on and it is not at all unusual for them to break loose at a most inopportune moment. I don't know about the availability of CZ rifles in Oz, but I would give them a look.





I have been blessed to be able to purchase many different brands of rifles, factory or otherwise...expensive and inexpensive...while I realize the Remington's are not a Holland and Holland or Westley Richards, IMHO, I think it is complete bullshit that the handles break off..While it may have at one time happened to someone at sometime after he beat it with a steel bar--I frankly don't believe it.. if that was the case, why would custom gun makers such as Kenny Jarret, or Les Weibernick use them on their multi thousand dollar guns.. not I know Jarret no longer uses them as he has come up with is own design.. however the fact is, he used them for many years..

The only two bolt handles I have ever seen or heardto have broken off was one with my booking agent out of Wyoming, who had a handle break off of a mauser action he had..another was when my fathers Winchester .22 tipped over and the handle broke off --Personally, I think a lot of people don't have enough to do and they come up some bs to discuss on the internet, which reminds me, I better get back to work.

Anyway, I have owned Remingtons in probably 15 differant calibers and have NEVER had one problem with them... Another notion you hear is the feeding ability--take one and hold it upside down and cycle the action..see if it feeds..again I have never had one that would not..

As to CZ's, in my experience, they are fairly accurate however a little rough around the edges as to workmanship---however in most factory rifles anymore quality no longer seems to be job one..

Again, this is my experience...
Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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MoRat
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83697 - 08/08/07 07:29 AM

Cheers to everyone, made my mind up that's for sure, I'm going for the .243, I have seen pigs brought down with a .22LR so go figure, there should be that many ammo choices for .243 winchester that I should be able to bring down pigs and big roo's. I am deffinatly not thinking of changing my rifle choice how ever, I researched for 3 months + before picking this rifle, my second choice was the Weatherby Fibregaurd Stainless, but was too front heavy for my liking. Although stronger I really liked the feeling of the Remington to hold and everything.

Cheers everyone for your replies

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xausa
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83718 - 08/08/07 02:35 PM

Don't take my word about Remingtons, ask szihn. The problem with Remingtons is not that the handles are silver soldered on, it's that they don't want to clean up around the joint, so they don't use enough solder to make the joint a good one. When I was in the gun business, I had one come off in my hand while I was cycling the action in the store.

If a custom gun maker wants to use one for an expensive job, presumably he would take the trouble to make sure the job was done right. While we're on the subject of Remingtons, the extractor is another factor to consider. You don't want to bet your life on a Remington extractor. One hint of an expanded case head, and it's all over.

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: xausa]
      #83725 - 08/08/07 09:36 PM

Again, I am merely going by my experiences and what I have visited with others about.. sorry but I am not buying the story that someone merely picks up a rifle, new and cycles the bolt and the handle comes off.. something is amiss with that entire deal..

As to the extractor--as I mentioned I have hunted several members of the big 5 with the Remington Custom shop .416 without so much as hiccup... again, IMHO, a lot of this has been severely over blown to journalist and those that need to write about something for a story in the next magazine. I visited with my booking agent yesterday in Wyoming on several issues and I mentioned some of this to him..he said he has shot competitively, booked clients for over 45 years on hunts and has NEVER heard once of this occuring.. not I am not saying it can't happen.. simply stating that it is severely overblown.. personally, when I go next year to hunt lion and cape buffalo, I will be taking again the Remington along with my double Westely Richards 470---however the Remington will probably be doing most of the work and I feel perfectly comfortable with that..

Ripp

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ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Tatume
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83732 - 08/08/07 10:58 PM

Having been around thousands of Remington M700 and M40X rifles, I have yet to see a mechanical failure of an action. They are in common use among sniper units, and are probably the most often used action in high-grade custom hunting rifles and centerfire match rifles. Reliability of the M700 action is well tested and documented.

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9.3x57
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Tatume]
      #83736 - 09/08/07 12:04 AM

As RIPP and I have discussed in the past , I am not a particular fan of the Remington 700.

For what you might call aesthetic reasons.

But function and accuracy?

The notion that "handles fall off" and "extractors fail" is probably less viable than the statement that on Mausers "the locking lugs set back" or "actions crack if the guard screws are torqued too tightly".

All of these things can happen under certain circumstances, but it must be remembered that Remingtons are churned out in the gazillions and reports of failures of any kind are rare indeed. They make up phenomenally accurate rifles.

I admit it does not take but one personal serious failure to sour a guy on any rifle. I once received a recall notice {after other troubles} on an expensive German rifle stating that the bolt handles were welded on with too high a heat or some such malarkey and the welds were brittle and handles fell off. The company made good but I'm done with that manufacturer for good. The gun was junk in so many ways.

But here is a fact: I literally cannot remember a single gun of any manufacturer I've purchased over the past ten years that was perfect, pistols included. All needed some adjustment to bedding, trigger, feeding, etc. VERY few guns I've ever owned in my life were perfect in function without some adjustment. Maybe I'm picky, or maybe others just don't care. One of the guns that was functionally perfect was a Remington 700. No problems whatsoever. Meaningless as it is one gun only, but it was my experience.

When I was in the business we didn't sell Remingtons because we couldn't compete with mass marketers. But we did sell other "higher end" guns and yes, we took some back from time to time for various problems.

It should be added that M24's are not simply plucked off an assembly line and sent to Iraq. I would recommend that nobody assumes any new gun purchased is perfect without making sure it is so.

As for the 7x57, we have used it on elk and deer with marvelous results. 150 grain Remington PSPCL's run to 2800 fps are sure killers. I have not one thing to say that is bad about the 7x57.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: 9.3x57]
      #83760 - 09/08/07 09:51 AM

9THREEXFIFTY7

Exactely.. however, maybe I am crazy, but it seems one could get a little better quality than now with some manufacturers..

When Weatherby first come out with the ultra-lights--I bought two..one in a .280 Remington and the other in a .257 Weatherby caliber.. while the .280 shot 1/2 inch groups with reloads... I tried everything from Factory to hand loads with the .257 to get it even to 1 1/2 inch and that was a rare moment...I tried a total of 3 Weatherby Ultra-lights in that caliber and never got one to shoot the way I wanted. I then purchased a titanium action Remington, yanked the barrel as Remington does not offer a .257 Weatherby Caliber, had a Hart barrel installed, and have been shooting 1/2 groups or less ever since-with both Barnes Triple Shocks and Nosler Ballistic tips.

I guess, like the previous individual mentioned, they were and are used a ton in both military and police sniper departments...gee, why would that be??.. probably because they don't shoot very well or are not mechanically sound??.I think not... if that was the case they would not have been used throughout the past 4 decades for that purpose..as well as being used by many "TOP END" custom gun makers--the reason being the round action is much easier to bed for a accurate rifle in addition to the benefits of the action itself...and an easily adjustable trigger..

I a have owned Weatherbys, Winchesters, Sako's, Sauers, and yes even Rugers... all in all, the Remingtons have been the most accurate out of the box as a general rule..

As mentioned, I am sure anything can happen, especially when you consider how many hundreds of thousands have been produced.. but as to their soundness overall, I would compare them to anything in their price range. Again, based on my experiences..


Ripp

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szihn
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83856 - 11/08/07 04:08 AM

Well guys
Let me tell you how it's been for me.
I have been doing gunsmithing now for almost 40 years. I worked as the "roving gunsmith" in Western Nevada and the Tahoe basin on the Cal. side, as well as doing gunsmithing for several shops in Reno Nevada. I also used to do the same thing for several Wyoming shops and one in Montana.
So I have handled thousands and thousands of Remington 721s, 722s and 700s.
I have had LOTS of extractors to replace. Now most were probably never soaked in solvent, and so were not "cleaned", but I am not lying to you when I tell you that they do break sometimes. I also did "service center" work for a while, and I have replaced about 12 M-700 bolt handles that came off rifles in gunshops before they were ever sold. So xausa is right. It's statistically rare, but don't think it doesn't happen.
Now you may say "It could happen to any other rifle too" Well yes, it could. However, I can tell you from personal experience that I have had to replace lost (they don't break) extractors on about 3-4 post 64 Winchesters, and 2 Savages in 38 years, I have replaced one Weatherby extractor that was just not machined right, and I have NEVER had to replace a Mauser extractor except for the occasional one that someone messed up trying to open it up for a belted mag, and ground too much off. (not the fault of the part)
If we look at the statistics, you probably have maybe a 1-1000 chance of having your m-700 come apart, and if you will clean your bolt face, so brass shavings don't build up under the extractor, you have a very good chance of having your M-700 work forever. So I would never say that you are "going to have a failure" -- but I also would say (without any doubt in my mind,) that if you were going to have a problem with a bolt action, it's probably going to be a Rem-721, 722 or 700.
Now I don't do "modern gunsmithing" anymore for my living. I work only on muzzleloaders, and I have for many years now, so I can't say what repairs are common anymore. However I would point out something to you all;
Go to the Brownells catalog. You will see that in the back there are many pages of gun parts listed for sale. Pages and pages of them.
But in the front of the catalog you will find Rem-700 extractors have a special place. Not Winchesters. Not Savages. Not Sakos.(except for those to replace Remingtons) Not Brownings.
Not Weatherbys. Not Rugers. Not 03 Springfields. Not 1917 Enfields. Mausers? .....yes...(because of people messing them up in their attempts to modify them, in my openion)
But there's a special place for Rem-700 extractors. (page 95 in their newest catalog)
Brownells doesn't make them a high profile item just because they need to take up space on a page.

Ok.........
Now I am sure the flames will begin. It's OK. I will just go make a flintlock.

I have told you all what I know, and what my experience has been. Your belief-- one way or the other --- is up to you. You have my blessing either way.

Edited by szihn (11/08/07 04:18 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: szihn]
      #83864 - 11/08/07 08:19 AM

Quote:

Well guys

So I have handled thousands and thousands of Remington 721s, 722s and 700s.
I have had LOTS of extractors to replace. Now most were probably never soaked in solvent, and so were not "cleaned", but I am not lying to you when I tell you that they do break sometimes.




Ironic you should write this as I was just visiting with Arnold at Capital City Sports in Helena. Arnold has been a gun smith there for over 30 years as well. He stated that if he was using a Remington and one was concerned about the extractor for hunting dangerous game, that one should replace it with a Sako extractor and that basically solves that..

As to reliablity, he stated he would have no problems at all using it for whatever game there was to hunt.

Arnold also stated that if he was to build a custom rifle and had his choice, his first choice would be to use an old mauser action, then a pre-64 action and his third choice would be a Remington action. He said of all the custom rifles he has built, he has had the least problems getting the guns to shoot accurately using the Remington actions than any of the other models.

Arnold stated that he has had problems with the new Winchesters for a couple of reasons.. one being that the threading in the barrels are finer and do not work well for rebarreling--he said the new Brownings you really can't rebarrel at all.. He also used to do warrantly work for Weatherby in addition to building custom rifles and repair..he finally got out of that as he said the warranty work on the Weatherby's kept him too busy to build custom guns..and flatly states he would NOT use one for a custom rifle if it was his choice..

So, I really do appreciate your info as it is always interesting in getting another persons point of view.. I do admit I find it a bit interesting that you state you worked on thousands and thousands.. a point I raise is, there are thousands and thousands of 700's out there..in fact based on a recent article in Field and Stream, it mentioned is was the most popular bolt action in America.. so based on that I would be curious as to percentage of repair in comparison to the other less popular models.. it stands to reason, if there are 5 times more guns you will probably work on more of them as a whole..

Again, I realize they are not a Empire custom or anything of the sort. I am merely saying that based on their history and their use in the military, policy force, custom gun makers, etc.. they must have done a few things right..
Ripp

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9.3x57
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Loc: United States
Re: .243 or 7mm [Re: Ripp]
      #83869 - 11/08/07 12:33 PM

Szihn, thanks for your remarks. I find all of it quite interesting. No flames from me.

Ripp makes a good point that the USA is awash in Remington 700's and your experience reinforces his assertion.

As for the SAKO extractor option, I've heard good and bad. The point being that the SAKO extractor is dead reliable on a SAKO but a Remington converted to a SAKO really demands a bit of skill on the man doing the conversion, more so than may commonly exist according to some reports on forums. Seems that way for lots of aftermarket "improvements". Personally, if I owned a Remington 700, I'd clean it and leave it alone. Seems like elbow grease and an old toothbrush have a lot going for them.

I wonder how many Remington 700's exist in the USA, then how many commericial Mauser 98's there are. I then also wonder how many of the 14 million or so Mauser 98's made are being used in converted form as sporters. These numbers are all probably unknown by anyone. Well, I don't know at least.

I do not own a Remington 700 and I like my Mausers of whatever ilk; 96, 96 Strengthened and 98, along with my Mauser wanna-be Ruger M77's. But a guy that buys a new Remington 700 and makes sure it is squared away and devoid of obvious ills has one of the world's best rifles and certainly one of the world's Most-Likely-To-Be-Accurate.

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