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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby
      #83473 - 03/08/07 09:04 AM

We ALL know that rimless cartridges will NOT work in a DR!

But if one is DUMB enough to want/use one anyway....why not a 416 Rigby?

I know there are lots of DR's in 375 H&H belted mags out there, why NOT a 416 Rigby in a DR?

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: AzGuy]
      #83479 - 03/08/07 11:08 AM

There is a .416 rimmed with the same balistics.

Regards

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: Bramble]
      #83481 - 03/08/07 11:15 AM

Merkel makes one in their Double, but unless they used a slimmer contour barrel its probably gonna handle like a railroad tie.

I believe Chris at Double gun imports had a custom Merkel to sell with scope in 416 Rigby many weeks ago

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An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: hoppdoc]
      #83490 - 03/08/07 12:41 PM

I'm not looking for one.....just wondered if they are out there and then if not, why not?

Understand that 500/416 has the same ballistics, but the 416 Rigby cartridge just screams "classic"....in a bolt action, I know.

But IF you are going to a rimless cartridge in a DR, why not the 416 Rigby instead of the 375
belted?

How about you guys/gals with a 375 belted DR....why didn't you buy a 416 Rigby?

Can't believe that factory ammo for the 500/416 is more available than 416 Rigby.

Just wondering

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

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africa1
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Reged: 30/05/07
Posts: 13
Loc: ohio, USA
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: AzGuy]
      #83657 - 07/08/07 09:04 PM

I think that a .416 rimless would be a great choice for a "high quality" DR. I use a rimless .458 in a new sidelock Beretta. I returned from a two week hunt in Africa three days ago. I shot a buffalo, waterbuck, and blesbuck with it. I have never had any feeding or ejection problems. I know that rimless is not traditional. When I get killed using it, I will have my widow post a retraction .

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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: africa1]
      #83791 - 10/08/07 01:50 AM

Africa1,

I also use a 458wm sidelock, mine by Marcel Thys. Eleven elephants, four cape buffalo, one zebra, one klipspringer and one baboon mercy kiling, about eight hundred rounds total and I have had no issues either.

When you want to go after elephants, try loading North Fork 450gr flat nose solids. They will take your 458wm into a different league. Penetration is vastly superior to round nose solids. My Woodleigh 500gr round nose solids run at 2135fps muzzle velocity and provide sufficient performance for any elephant, the 450 North Forks at 2190fps and the differnce in performance is remarkable. The North Forks shoot better too.

JPK

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: AzGuy]
      #83802 - 10/08/07 04:31 AM

I might be showing my ignorance here, but doesn't the 416 Rigby have a rebated rim? Would this not make reliable ejection more complicated?

Just as a note, I'm NOT one of those guys who says NEVER have a rimless cartridge in a double. I've shot too many rimless doubles to say. I'm just wondering if rebated rimless cartridges are more difficult.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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Showbart
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Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 29
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: Chasseur]
      #83920 - 12/08/07 12:01 PM


Yes the Rigby case is ever so slightly rebated. So slight the difference is negligible.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: AzGuy]
      #84024 - 14/08/07 08:46 AM

As anyone, who knows me, will tell you, as if you didn't already know it, rimless cartridges are not my favorite things in a double rifle. However, if I have a preference for one rimless over another in a double rifle, it would likely be a standard rimless, like the configuration of the 0ld 30-06. Second to that configuration would be the configuration on the various belted magnums, like the 458 Win Mag, or the 375 H&H magnum. Last would be a rebated rimless, like the 416 Rigby. IMO that rebated rimless case would exacerbate any reliability problem caused by a rimless cartridge in a double rifle.

There are several folks on this and other sites that use belted rimless, and standard rimless cartridges in their double rifles without any mishap at all. I've had a couple myself, but they were 8x57 Mauser, and one chambered for 9.3X62, not in dangerous game rifles. They happened to be very well made German rifles, and cape guns, and gave no problem. I think in the case of very well made doubles like the Marcell Tyes, or others of that class, the rimless chamberings seem to not be as much of a problem, at least in the cases I've been made aware of. Like anything the cheaper you go the more likely the problems will show their true nature, IMO!

Many cuss these rounds on a chamber pressure basis, and I don't necessarily agree with that completely, as long as the owner doesn't try to hot-rod the loading. The hot-rodding of those cartridges, however, is more likely, IMO, by the folks who are attracted to those rounds in the first place. This is because these people are basically bolt-action guys who suddenly show a desire for a classic double rifle to hunt big things in Africa. They are, however, attracted to the cartridges they've used in their bolt rifles, and used to pushing the loads in their bolt rifles to the absolute limit. If these guys pick very upscale doubles, then the chances of a mishap, is lessened, but many who are also shopping for a bargain, and a rimless cartridge in a double rifle may be in for some grief. The best of these guys are those who tend to use factory ammo, and do not re-load, so they hold pressures low.

Merkel chambers the 416 Rigby, but they don't sell well, and if you want one, you can most likely get one at a bargain, brand new, because the dealers have trouble moveing them!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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577express
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Reged: 18/02/07
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Loc: U.S.
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #84054 - 15/08/07 03:12 AM

Ive had a few rechambered for the cartridge and worked just fine. I also own some rimless cartridge DR's and never one issue.

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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
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Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: 577express]
      #84207 - 18/08/07 02:27 PM

One of the latest SCI publications has an ad for a Merkel (IIRC) with three barrels. One barrel in .375 H&H, one in .416 Rigby, and the 3rd in .470 NE. Total package is advertised at $38k + change. I thought the board might find it interesting that at least one maker seems to have a sense of humor (I think). The three rounds are belted rimless, slight rebated rim, and rimmed. So much for the concensus voiced on this board. FWIW Pilgrim

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: Pilgrim]
      #84296 - 20/08/07 10:05 AM

Quote:

One of the latest SCI publications has an ad for a Merkel (IIRC) with three barrels. One barrel in .375 H&H, one in .416 Rigby, and the 3rd in .470 NE. Total package is advertised at $38k + change. I thought the board might find it interesting that at least one maker seems to have a sense of humor (I think). The three rounds are belted rimless, slight rebated rim, and rimmed. So much for the concensus voiced on this board. FWIW Pilgrim



Pilgrim, I think you better go back and read that again! I believe that is three matching double rifles, each in it's own fitted case, with consecutive serial numbers, in the 140-2.5 models, not one rifle with three sets of barrels! Still high in my mind, but since the 140-2 (standard grade)sells for $12.9K each, that isn't a great bargain but if you want three mod 140-2.5's double rifles, matching or not, it is close to retail!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Pilgrim
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Reged: 25/05/04
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Loc: Washington State, USA
Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #84300 - 20/08/07 12:57 PM

Dugaboy1 - I'll take your word for it. I threw the "newspaper" (not sure what else to call it!) away after reading it. The 38k price for the three would seem to be about right for 3 ea rifles. I didn't read the ad terribly carefully as I have no interest in any of the cartridges advertised. What I have been following, though, is the (more or less) constant advice to avoid the rimless cartridges, despite no reported problems with rimless cartridge double rifles from any number of board members. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I found it somewhat amusing to note a current manufacturer making rifles/barrels for all three case types. I'd suspect fewer parts, and less critical tolerances with the rimmed cartridge extractors/ejectors, but with all of the comments I've read to date, it appears to be "belts and suspenders" are better than "belts" if you are concerned about your britches falling off. Mebbe so...If I ever find a need for a cartridge/rifle more powerful than my 9.3X74R Chapuis, I think I'd step up to something with the .458 bore size, 450 NE preferred, but a .458 at the right price would be hard to turn down. Pilgrim

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
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Re: If a rimeless DR... why not a 416 Rigby [Re: Pilgrim]
      #84460 - 23/08/07 04:40 AM

Quote:

Dugaboy1 - What I have been following, though, is the (more or less) constant advice to avoid the rimless cartridges, despite no reported problems with rimless cartridge double rifles from any number of board members. I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but I found it somewhat amusing to note a current manufacturer making rifles/barrels for all three case types. I'd suspect fewer parts, and less critical tolerances with the rimmed cartridge extractors/ejectors, but with all of the comments I've read to date, it appears to be "belts and suspenders" are better than "belts" if you are concerned about your britches falling off. Mebbe so...If I ever find a need for a cartridge/rifle more powerful than my 9.3X74R Chapuis, I think I'd step up to something with the .458 bore size, 450 NE preferred, but a .458 at the right price would be hard to turn down. Pilgrim



I have to agree with you for the most part! Chances are, you will not have a problem with a better made rifle,that being one safeguard, and as long as you do poroper care and feeding it, the double rifle chambered for a rimless cartridge.

What I find to be the biggest problem with doubles so chambered is, the people who are drawn to those type cartridges( the belted mags), are usually people who are basiclly bolt rifle people, and tend to want to get every foot per second they can from the cartridge. That is the place where these guys get into trouble, in most cases. The problems with proper loads comes from the tiny moveing parts, that are suscepable to breakage, but even that is not a sure thing to cause a problem. Still "an ounce of prevention", so to speak, is to simply buy a double rifle with a rimmed cartridge,as an innoculation, and not worry about catching your death!

You see folks who, may never have contracted small pocks,but were innoculated against it, to avoid the chance, may very well be the reason the disease has passed them by! It is hard to prove something that didn't happen, as being less, or More riliable! Like insurance companies,I do not judge by what hasn't happened, but what has, or what might happen because of the cercunstances involved. IMO, it simply doesn't make sense to buy something that has a potentual to fail, if there is something else, that has less potentual to fail,and is available at the same cost,and will do as good a job, when you have a choice.

The debate will never be settled, and there is no need to try to settle it, because folks will go their own way, and that is the way it should be!

However, when asked my take on any subject, the answers the questioner will get is my honest opinion, I can't, in good conscience, opperate any other way! So! For me it is Side by side barrels, double triggers,and rimmed cartridges in all double rifles, used for dangerous game! Others may do as it suits them.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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