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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns
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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
My new GP Greener Bore Gun
      #82538 - 16/07/07 05:41 PM

As promised, I have taken a couple of photos of my new toy for anyone interested in having a look.
It's very plain and simple, but it didn't cost the earth and its fun to shoot, what more could you want?
It is based on a GP Greener action with a 27" Pac-Nor barrel, 1~20" twist and 7 lands and grooves. It has an NECG rear sight and a Williams "shorty" ramp front sight. And a most welcome red Decelerator recoil pad.
It weighs 8lb 15 ozs empty. I had my gunsmith bead blast blue it to cut down on glare, and also to preserve the light Greener stampings on the action sides.
Wood is still the original wood, might get the checkering re-cut one day to make it look a bit better.
Going to the range tomorrow to see what happens, I have some Paradox style projectiles to try, they weigh 680 grains with a Hollow point and I also have some .732" diameter round balls, they weigh 570 grains.

Regards,
David.


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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 435
Loc: SC, USA
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82542 - 16/07/07 09:42 PM

very nice!!! thanks for posting.

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bouldersmith
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 627
Loc: Boulder Colorado
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: degoins]
      #82543 - 16/07/07 09:46 PM

Nice....I'm building one for a customer, a 20 bore on a large comercial martini action. Neat stuff.
Steve

--------------------
New website http://www.bertramandco.com

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rigbymauser
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Reged: 15/05/05
Posts: 1972
Loc: Denmark
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: bouldersmith]
      #82559 - 17/07/07 02:01 AM

Thanks for posting 450Ackley...

A really nice gun to pop skippys with

Please let us know what loads your are shooting + accuracy..

Where does the bigframe martini-Henry origin from?? 577-450?

Edited by rigbymauser (17/07/07 02:20 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 27093
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: rigbymauser]
      #82562 - 17/07/07 02:14 AM

Good luck David - 1 in 20 is a good twist for 500gr. bullets in .45 calibre. Larger bores require slower twists as even a .50 cal. with 24" will handle bullets over 650gr. From my meager experiance, a 20 bore should have around 46" of twist for short conicals and 56" TO 70" for round balls.
: 12's, which will hold up to 190gr. 2F and round ball in a 2-1/2" case is better served with 80" to 100" of twist, fastest around 70" perhaps.
; I hope yours is OK.
; PacNor makes find barrels, as you already know. I am surprised they made a 12 bore with that twist. Might work find with 1,000 grain bullets.
; Very nice gun, just worried about that twist. With really low velocities in the 1,200fps range, it might be OK.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (17/07/07 02:18 AM)

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #82568 - 17/07/07 06:32 AM

Nice rifle.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #82572 - 17/07/07 07:39 AM

DarylS,
I know what you mean, 20 twist is the only one Pac-Nor makes, Shaw and Hastings both make 34" twists, which would have been better, but they will not ship barrels outside the U.S. Time will tell I suppose. Going to the range today to try it out, will post some results tonight all going well.

Regards,
David.

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Range Results GP Greener 12 bore. [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82593 - 17/07/07 07:31 PM

Well I did go to the range today to try out the new toy.
Results were better than I expected. The top group is using the 680 grain CBE Paradox HP projectile, with a load of Nobels 82, a shotgun powder I have left over from my Clay Target days and a BPI gas seal and various card and felt wads, then a liquid alox lubed bullet, roll crimped. That group measures 1.750" c to c of the widest holes.
The bottom group is 5 rounds of a .732" round ball, also liquid aloxed. The load for it uses AP 70N powder and a BPI Light Brush wad with the ball seated on top and a normal fold crimp applied, a very basic easy to load round. That group measures 2.300" c to c widest holes. Both groups were fired only at 50 metres. I fired 10 rounds at 100m with the CBE bullets offhand and managed to keep all of them in about a 7" circle, not bad, but not brilliant either.
Velocity went 1115 fps for the CBE bullets, unfortunately my chronograph did not want to co-operate with the round ball loads, most probably because of the wad producing error readings. All in all, I'm happy with it.

Regards,
David



Edited by 450_Ackley (17/07/07 07:32 PM)

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
Posts: 435
Loc: SC, USA
Re: Range Results GP Greener 12 bore. [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82595 - 17/07/07 09:31 PM

very impressive......makes me want one even more now!!! thanks alot!!!

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Reged: 24/03/04
Posts: 1214
Loc: Western Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun *DELETED* [Re: rigbymauser]
      #82596 - 17/07/07 10:12 PM

Post deleted by ALAN_MCKENZIE

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #82601 - 18/07/07 12:40 AM

Thanks for posting the groups, David. Looks as if it's doing just fine. I had thought earlier of getting the Hastings barrel, but was concerned about the 'fast' 35" twist. Maybe I shouldn't have been concerned?
: Since you are in Australia, where I assume most of the Hodgdon powders are made, can you get the ADI equivelent of 'Longshot', shotgun powder? This one is listed in the data for pushing 1-1/4 ounce loads of shot out at almost 1,600fps. This data should be useable in the 12 bore for round ball loads as well wiht virtually identical results. BTW, that 1,600fps is 50fps faster than the heavy 12 bor black powder load of 7 drams (191gr.) and the smokeless load will have 1/2 the recoil.
: BTW- if you have a friend in the States, they can buy anthing you need and send it along, as far as I know. I've bought scopes from the States, that way while it is illegal for any 'store' there to sell me one.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
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Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #82610 - 18/07/07 07:15 AM

Daryl,
Thanks for the comments, I looked on the ADI website, AP 70N that I am using is the same as Hodgdons Universal Clays, ADI make a slower one for pistols called AP 100, supposed to be similar to SR 4756, but they list no data in shotshells for it at all. The Nobels 82 has a burning rate similar to +/- Herco. haven't tried Herco yet, always had brilliant results with it when I loaded OO/SG's.
Can't find much on Longshot it looks to have a burning rate between Blue Dot and 2400. ADI does not have anything similar to it listed, it might be made elsewhere, or at least not available to us in Australia.
I'll keep playing and see what I come up with.

Regards,
David.

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450
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Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 199
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82621 - 18/07/07 05:19 PM

450Ackley

That is a nice rifle.

I have been mucking around with a Marlin slugmaster which has a fully rifled barrel. (Couldn't find a greener or a parodox rifle that I could afford) I had a parodox mould made by CBE in
Sydney. It weighs 740 grains. I also loaded around ball which weighed 540 grains. I started out with AP70 but then switched over to AP100. I found some loads in Graeme Wrights book, Shooting the English double barrel rifle.

I tried useing card and felt wads, but my most accurate load came from brand new Winchester cases, AP 100, winch 1 ounce wad Very easy and accurate. No signs of pressure. They are great fun to shoot.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450]
      #82624 - 18/07/07 07:10 PM

450,
Any chance you might be able to send me a PM with the AP 100 load you are using? Have you chronographed it?
I sent an e-mail off to ADI today asking a few questions, will see if they send a reply.

Thanks,
David.

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82632 - 19/07/07 01:38 AM

4756 and 7625 are also useable as these are what I used in my RB 12 bore loads. Unfortunetly, burn rate is only one of the factors in comparing powders. Energy per grain is also high on the list of determining factors.
; With round ball, one could start around 24g.r of either 7625 or 4756. 7625 is the faster of the two, and may give better results with round ball. I seem to remember that 4756 was used in and around 30 gr. charges with round balls and enough wads to fill the case. I used the cupped base wads, base cut off and cup-up to hold the undersized ball in the centre of the bore. One was used cup down on the powder, then filler wads, then cup-up to hold the ball centred. This was necessary for accuracy in my smoothbore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450
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Reged: 30/12/06
Posts: 199
Loc: Melbourne,Victoria, Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #82645 - 19/07/07 10:05 AM


David.
Tried to send you a PM on three occassions. It would not recognize the user name 450 Ackley.

Wayne.

--------------------
The worst days shooting and hunting is better than the best day at work

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450]
      #82654 - 19/07/07 02:12 PM

Wayne,
Try it with an underscore between the 450 and the Ackley, as in 450_Ackley, that might work. (Or just click on my username in one of my posts, above the avatar)

Regards,
David.

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LukeinNZ
.224 member


Reged: 07/10/04
Posts: 30
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82767 - 21/07/07 07:30 AM

Hey 450 Ackley,
Lovely looking bore gun. DO you mind if I ask what the project from start to finish cost? Looks to me an economical means of owning your very own "bore gun". Happy shooting...I want one!

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450_Ackley
.375 member


Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: LukeinNZ]
      #82771 - 21/07/07 08:04 AM

Luke,
Wasn't too bad actually, the GP Greener cost me $375-00 AUD with the shotgun barrel, which I still have, my gunsmith made it a switch barrel, so I have 2 barrels and 2 forends, just loosen the screw on the side of the action and unscrew one barrel and replace with the other, takes less than 2 minutes. The barrel from Pac-Nor cost me $270-00 AUD, $20-00 for a chamber from another gunsmith who had a reamer, my gunsmith that put it all together and I swapped a few things that I had and he wanted, so that cost very little, the sights, recoil pad etc all up cost around $180-00 AUD.
So long story short I got out of it for well under $1000-00 Australian. The mould from CBE was quite expensive, $235-00, but when you see the amount of work that went into the mould and how good it works, making both hollow points and solids, you can more than understand why. I also bought a round ball mould from Jeff Tanner in England, landed in Australia, I think it set me back $65-00, custom made to any size you want. Shotgun cases and wads cost bugger-all, they don't use a lot of powder per shot and lead prices are reasonable at the moment, so you can have a hell of a lot of fun for not much money.

Regards,
David.

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Reged: 03/10/05
Posts: 286
Loc: Montana
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #82957 - 24/07/07 01:57 AM

Wow, 450 that's a great looking rifle. Thanks for posting the pictures and info. If mine comes out half as nice I'll be thrilled. I haven't obtained a barrel yet, and had the same concerns about twist. I was thinking along the lines of 1:66 or 1:60.

I think the modern fast twist barrels are designed with sabots in mind, not us luddites launching big hunks of lead. Your's certainly seems to not have any issues with twist based on those groups!

Bob

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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333_okh
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Loc: Northern California
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #85057 - 03/09/07 07:36 AM

Comparitively, how much bigger in diameter is the current barrel from the shotgun barrel that was on it?

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 333_okh]
      #85084 - 04/09/07 01:09 AM

Badger barrels in the US are making a 1 in 36 twist barrel which according to all reports is ideal for ball and also slugs.

Al

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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DarylS
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Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #85134 - 05/09/07 12:46 AM

Bob, I like your idea about the 60" twist as opposed to the 35". Back in the hayday of double ML's for dangerous game, the English makers were hung up over using twists in the 36" range, as noted by Forsyth in his little book " The Sporting Rifle and it's Projectiles" printed in 1861 or 2.
; He noted the fast twists stripped balls, and recommended slower twists, as slow as 1 in 12 feet in some instances. We know today, that is too slow as enormous charges are needed to get stability in those rates of twist.
; 60" to 70" would probably handle quite well with round balls and short slugs. My own 14 bore (.69 cal.) rifle, with it's 66" twist shot amazingly well with RB's as well as slugs in the 600gr. weight. 5 shot round balls groups off the bench ran 1 1/2" consistantly, over a 20 years of such use with only the express sights for aiming. The heavier slugs greatly increased recoil and were not used much, only for testing, however they did shoot to the same sights to 50 yards and ran roughly 2" fo groups, much larger than round balls.
: The round balls, if slightly hardened, would exit a moose so more penetration wasn't needed. RB's in pure lead weighted 480gr. at .680" diameter, while WW balls at .683"(same mould) weighed 466gr. I ran the balls at 1,550fps, same as my 12 bore ctg. gun did with 5 1/2 drams (150gr.) of 2F and .715" balls at 545gr. in pure lead.
: For most hunting, I'd use RB's and pick a rate of twist expecially for them. The 60" to 75" would be IT. Comprimise twists, like the 35" normally avialable nowadays, interest me little as they usually fail to deliver the best results from either projectile. My 12 bore double gun would average 2" at 25 yards, shooting lefts and rights, and it was a smoothbore. Longer range shooting would be necessary for a rifled bore to show it's potential, I believe.
; I suggest picking the appropriate twist for the projectile you wish to shoot.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: 450_Ackley]
      #85863 - 19/09/07 03:55 AM

.450 - the Lyman Shotshell Handbook, 3rd edition, has some good data in the rear for all the gauges using buck, ball, Brenneke and slug data.
; Because this is an older edition, the powders used don't include Longshot or other more modern powders, however the data is rather exciting to say the least.
; The wad columns noted in the data, closely approximate what I found to work well in my double, so many years ago.
; Data for a .690" ball, (both Lyman and Lee make this mould) as well as the Lyman 475gr. slug, some conical 12 bore slug I don't know about as well as Brenneke slugs shows data from the mid 1,300fps range to almost 1,600fps.
: Powders used are Blue Dot, Unique, Herco, SR 7625, SR 4756 and Hi-Scor 800X.
: The loads running mid 1,500fps are duplicates for the African 12 bore BP load of 7 drams (190gr.), yet recoil is down in the 2-3/4" mag. shotshell range. Various shotshells are used.
: I hope this isn't a duplicate post.
: I've just loaded up a bunch of test loads using 35.5gr. 4756, 3, 1/8" cards and the base of a steel-shot wad for keeping the slightly undersize .722" WW ball I have, in the centre of the cylinder bore. Due to having the cards on top of the powder, instead of a sealing plastic cup wad, more powder is needed to achieve roughly 8 to 10,000LUP. I suspect I'll have to get up around 40gr. to get the requisite velocity in the 1,550fps range from my old pump-gun. In my load, the plastic wad is directly underneath the ball, and allows a standard fold crimp in the target hulls I have, yet shows the ball in the centre, for easy identification.
; I do like your gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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450_Ackley
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Reged: 06/02/03
Posts: 583
Loc: Darling Downs, Qld Australia
Re: My new GP Greener Bore Gun [Re: DarylS]
      #86065 - 22/09/07 02:45 PM

Daryl,
Thanks very much for the info, currently loading up some slugs with AP-100 (similar to but not the same as SR 4756), will try them out over the next few weekends.
Had some interesting chronograph data last weekend...
Tried some AP-70N (Universal Clays), the load was an ACTIV case, CCI 209 primer, a Gualandi 24 gram wad with the petals removed and a CBE 680 grn HP Paradox style projectile and roll crimped. The velocity registered over my CED Millenium 2 chronograph was 1450 fps, I thought this was too high and the wad column might have been casting shadows or something over the screens, but I also put a few over a mates Oehler 33, same velocity. It certainly gets your attention off the bench, as the GP only weighs a shade under 9 lb.
I have the 1st, 2nd and 3rd editions of the Lyman book as well, they certainly did have some fun making up all the different loads in the books. Regretably we can't get Longshot powder over here, I asked ADI about it, it's not sold under another name here either, AP-100 is the slowest of the "shotgun type" powders they have available, must say I was very impressed with the help I received from ADI, as they sent through quite a list of load data including velocities and pressures for slug loads using AP-100, which is not listed in their book.
Will let you know how these loads go, should have some brass cases from RMC coming soon too.

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