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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Nagell
.224 member


Reged: 10/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Denmark
New DR project
      #82175 - 10/07/07 09:54 PM

I am starting on my first double rifle project and would appreciate your opinion on a few issues

I have bought a 16 gauge Simson and Suhl (Thuringen) from 1967 that apart from some exterior rust on one side of the barrel is in new condition. It dosn´t look as though it has ever fired a shot! It cost me aprox. 60 US.

Questions; calibre – I was thinking of something like 450/400, 450 NE or 470 NE. Ellis brown states in his book that 450/400 is to heavy on the recoil due to the light weight of the finished gun.
Having shot 338 RM, 375 HH and 416 RM for some years I am used to magnum rifles, so recoil dosn´t frighten me. Any suggestions?

Having only a mill and not a lathe I had planned to order the barrels finished from Lothar Walther, Germany. This leaves me with a problem; if I get the barrels finished I will not have the reamer to cut the chambers and will not be able to adjust the headspace by cutting the chamber. I was hoping to get by this by ordering the shoulder on the breech a little shorter than the monoblock, I could them adjust the headspace by taking of material on the face of the monoblock.

Thankful for any comments

Regards

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3sixbits
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alaska
Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82197 - 11/07/07 07:19 AM

Why can't you request the barrels come to you without chambers? You then will need to order your chamber reamer and gauges, and order the correct tooling you can chamber in the vise, with the correct tooling I can highly recommend this method if you are willing to take the time and proper care to do the job right. You will need to have the barrels in hand to order the correct bushing, you can send the bullets of choice to the reamer maker so they can get the throat right also.

Select your brass ahead and send a sample along with the bullets you plan to use to your reamer maker to make the proper head space gauge for you also.

Hint, get the brass that easiest to find and lay in a hundred, if your are going to black powder your loads, you can order a custom resize reamer to match, die body blank. Going this way you will have a life time of shooting from your hundred, if kept properly clean.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: New DR project [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82213 - 11/07/07 11:28 AM

1) Without a lathe, how will you thread the barrels for the mono bloc? Can't see Walther doing it really.
2) Before worrying about recoil what is that 16 Guage proofed at, that will determine cartridge choice to some extent. Also the C-C on the firing fins.
3) With due defference to 3sixbits, I dont think that it is going to be very easy to ream a 3" plus long chamber by hand. I know how hard my L5 was working in backgear and the cut pressure. IMHO to would get an ovaled chamber. Then theres trimming and crowning etc.

Lathe and no milling machine yes, the other way round I don't belive so.

Regards

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3sixbits
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
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Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82219 - 11/07/07 01:54 PM

Reading what Nagell has written, the barrels would be finished and that appears to be in or on the monoblock.

As for cutting by hand, it is something that is done, often.

You ran your lathe in back gear because that is the slowest speed.

The nature of all reamers is to cut over or oval as you call it. This is the reason some of us use a fitted removable bushing that is our pilot riding on top of the rifling.

As an aside Sir, barrels are sold short chambered every day, just for the purpose of cutting the finale for headspacing, also pre-threaded. Does this mean you have to have a mill or converter for your lathe to cut the extractor groove? No Sir, I still cut by hand, while my mill sets idle.

Just as some cut a chamber in the head and some cut the chamber on a steady rest, there is other ways to cut a chamber, that does not require a lathe.

Depending on the mill, one could cut the chamber using the proper mill. Using an indexing, dividing head, this is exactly how I cut revolver cylinders on my mill.

Yes Sir machinery does make many jobs easier. All machines are meant, and made to do is replace a hand operation. Just as many of us were taught in our school day.

With due respect Mr. Bramble, there is more than "one way to skin a cat"!

Just as there is other ways of saying 375.

Respectively your, 3sixbits.

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82263 - 12/07/07 02:04 AM

Not owning a lathe is not the same as not having access to one. Surely there is one available locally (try your local trade school) you can use for the relatively short period of time you need to turn the barrel shanks to the proper dimensions, thread them and rough cut the chambers.

Incidentally, piloted drill bits are a very expeditious means of removing the majority of metal from the chamber area, followed by a roughing reamer (which doubles as a resizing die reamer, if so ordered from the manufacturer) and finally by the finishing reamer, which can be turned by hand, using a tap wrench to turn it with.

Whatever method you use, be sure to withdraw the drill or reamer frequently to clean off chips and to keep it well lubricated.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
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Re: New DR project [Re: xausa]
      #82285 - 12/07/07 08:05 AM

Dear 3Sixbits

What he said was. He was intending to order the barrels finished from Lother Walther.
I can/did only comment on my dealings with them, they would I believe be unwilling to produce 2 only short chambered barrels threaded, for a private customer. I get my barrels from the states for this reason.

Of course the lathe is running backgeared for the low speed, however this reduction in gearing also increases the torque of the machine. That is when you can sense the cut pressure.
All my reamers are live pilot and they are held in a floating reamer holder, with high pressure through the barrel lubrication/cooling.
My comment about oval chambers is because in order to produce the required downward pressure for the reamer to cut whilst rotating it, there is a tendency for a person to lean on the reamer holder handle nearest them.
If taking 10 thou out of a short chambered barrel it is not a problem.In fact common practice.
With respect you were not suggesting that, you suggested that he got an unchambered blank.
That is a hell of a lot of material to remove without scoring or ovaling the chamber.

You are obviously a very experienced machinist, perhaps you can do the whole procedure in a vise. Not one in a hundered would attempt it. I assumed from the tone of the origional post that this gentleman is not widely experienced. Even too tight a vise can distort the chamber. Many benchrest gunsmits will only chamber in steady rests rather than through the headstock because of jaw pressure on the chamber area.

I have never cut a rifle chamber on a mill so I defer to your experience.


Thats a good way to do revolver cylinders. I don't have a milling machine. I cut the bolt stops/cuts on a dividing head on the lathe with a modified woodruf cutter and then line bore the cylinder by hand using hardened bushes in place of the barrel. As you said more than one way to skin a cat.

Regards

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3sixbits
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alaska
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82295 - 12/07/07 09:44 AM

Mr. Bramble, Sir I have no intention of distracting from your work. I did enjoy your pictures vary much on your conversion, I'm sure the folks at the London Proof house got a kick out of the home machinist bringing in a vary well turned out project.

Of course England has a vary long tradition of some vary fine home machinist, quite remarkable really. I have some vary fine tooling made in some of the houses from England.

As for the chambering in the head or on the steady rest, I've done both, my lath has an 1 5/8" spindle bore id. However I use a steady rest to chamber on and cut and crown with.

Everything you did, the fellow that started this thread, could farm out to have done.

As for your choice in barrel makers, Dan is one of my favorites, I have a number of his blanks here in my shop, and a lot more fitted to my rifles. I used his barrels when I shot benchrest with Dan, and hold his work in high regard.

Your build with the pictures of your fixture for regulating reminded me of another fixture I had seen , but fitted from the end (muzzles). I look forward to seeing pictures (if not to late) on how you will make your rib. Along with a description of the material you used.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: New DR project [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82349 - 13/07/07 08:40 AM

3sixbits

The ribs were made from 3/32 x 7/16 cold rolled bright mild steel. The quater riib was from some stock that I had, a piece or an old shotgun rib I think.
I didn't take any photos as at the time I was desperate to get finished before embarking on a large contract that I knew would keep me busy before Africa.
All of the work on the ribs was with files and a smoker. There are so many compounded angles because of the taper of the barrels I couldent thint of another way to do it easily. That was one of the times a CNC Mill would have been just the right tool.

I think you are right he may have to farm some of the work out.
We have a funny legal quandry here in England. I can do this to my own gun, but if I wanted to have somebody else do it, it would have to be a RFD (FFL) If a ordenary engineering shop did it for me they would be breaking the law the moment they chambered the barrels. If I wanted to have something done that I dident have the equiptment for I would literally have to stand next to the opperator.

In fact technically I cannot be on a firing range and let a friend try my gun even if he is a liscence holder. It would specifically have to be entered on his lisence first.

Regards

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3sixbits
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alaska
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82371 - 13/07/07 03:02 PM

There is a simple solution to your problem. Grab the guns, hunting dog, (wife and kids operational) and run for the border. After all 12,000,000 Mexican can't be wrong.

All kidding aside, you did a vary find job from the pictures, makes you wonder how the old fellows swamped the ribs?

CnC has it plus and a lot of minuses, I say that as one who owns an nc mill. The cost of programing and time to do a programme is a real down side. The one real plus is the ball screws, when you run it in manual (no reference to the Mexicans).

I see that the forend was not such an issue for you after all. Which means I don't want to mess with it again for a good long while?

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: New DR project [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82454 - 15/07/07 03:32 AM

No kidding. I was hunting with a bunch of friends most of who are from the SW US. I told them if there is an amnisty for illegals, then they should put my name down. ;-)

I've never run CnC either mill or lathe. How long to programme something like a barrel profile? or a rib profile? And if you did one could you use the same programme again and just change the critical dimensions?

With the forend, it was time criticla at the end, so I removed wood above the barrell ine and let the forend iron in about 3/8 lower to change the angles a bit. It is OK but I would like to restock it properly now that I know it shoots good.
Good walnut blanks are so expensive though here. I am getting a semi inlet for a mauser from the states next month and if that is good I will see if they will sell me a rough cut blank.

Regards

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Nagell
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Reged: 10/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Denmark
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82455 - 15/07/07 03:34 AM

Hello gentlemen

Thank you for your comments on lathe versus hand chambering. To be quit honest, chambering now sounds more complicated than I thought before. Back to my question; Having somebody professional with an computer lathe doing the lathe work on the barrels (if LotharWalther won’t, I’m sure I can get somebody else to) has several advantages as I see it; both barrels will have the same contour, I wouldn’t have to by (you can’t rent in DK) the reamers and I wouldn’t need to buy/borrow a lathe and learn to use one. So I would prefer to have it done.
As I understand Headspace on DR and shotguns this is the distance from the base of the cartridge and the breechblock (action face), but as the breech and the breechblock on a closed gun virtually touches, headspace could be defined as the distance from the base of the cartridge and the breech. So the headspace could be done on the barrels without monoblock and the action. Aligning the breech on the new barrels and the monoblock would give then give the right headspace?

Is this right or am I missing something?

Regarding the calibre; The 16 gauge is proofed to > 32.000 PSI. So it should be able to take the 450 NE. But will the gun be to light?

Regards
Nagell

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82468 - 15/07/07 07:21 AM

Quote:

Hello gentlemen

Regarding the calibre; The 16 gauge is proofed to > 32.000 PSI. So it should be able to take the 450 NE. But will the gun be to light?

Regards
Nagell



Hi!

Have a 16 gauge merkel 8 so its probably the same as your simson.
How did you find out the prooving pressure, sound quite high but if its right it would take more if the base of your cartridge is smaller than the 16 gauge.

Andreas

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82469 - 15/07/07 07:52 AM

Couple of things.

Yes you might be able to fit the barrels such. However the accepted way is to make them slightly protruding from the monoblock face and to smoke and file/hone them in for a perfect fit and then adjust the rim cut with the reamer to get perfect cartridge headspace. If the rim cut is slightly too deep( and we are talking 5 thou or so then the cartridge base can get a running start at the action face. ( I will ignore cartridges clinging to chamber walls as it complicates the issue and we have to start looking at chamber polish etc)Much too deep and you might get erratic ignition as firing pin force is used up shoving the cartridge forward.
Your calcs and drawings would have to be exactly spot on first time with no possibility of correction. That is hard.
In the overall cost of this sort of project then the cost of a reamer is insignificant. I use Dave Kiff. @ Pacific tool and Gauge (541)826-5808. My .450#2 was $ 147.00. IMHO it would make your life a whole lot easier. Also whoever you get to do the chambering may not have the reamer in the first place and they would proberbly add it to the cost of the chambering and threading. You could buy one and supply it to them to be returned with the barrels.

As to pressures etc. Your 16 guage is proved at 32,000 psi. But that is proof load, not the service load. 1 1/4 oz 16 guage shells are about 11,000 psi that is the service load for that firearm.

Hoop stress will not be the issue. Breach thrust will.

Take the area of the base of a 16G and multiply by the 11,000 that will give an aproximaton of base thrust. so .430 x 11,000 = 4728 lbs
Do the same with the cartridge you plan to use. ie 450 3 1/4 NE av. 34,000psi = .233 x 34,000 = 7927 lbs
16 g at proof pressure is .430 x 32,000 = 13,760lbs

So the 450 has 70% more breach thrust than the service load and 60% of the total at proof.

you are using up a lot of the safety margin.
This does not mean that it wont work but it should be bourne in mind. This was why i used the .450#2 as the ave pressure is 26,000 psi. For the same balistics.
My rifle was re-proved at 52,500 psi.

Hope this helps

Regards

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bonanza
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Loc: South Carolina
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82479 - 15/07/07 11:49 AM

You can sleeve a 16 gauge barrel and make a nice 450 NE or 45-120. Cut the barrels to no longer than 23" Regulate for a 400 grain bullet at 2150 for nearly 4000 FT/LBS. Nice!

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
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Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82491 - 16/07/07 01:44 AM

Headspace in a rimmed cartridge is measured from the bottom of the rim recess to the face of the breech, and is therefore only slightly greater than the thickness of the rim on the cartridge. With a belted case, headspace is measured from the bottom of the belt recess in the chamber to the breech face.

In both cases, measurement is made using simple "button" style gauges for "go" and "no go" purposes. (The "go gauge" represents the correct spacing and allows a properly headspaced weapon to close on it, the "no go guage" should prevent the action from closing. If the action closes on a "no go guage", then headspace is excessive.)

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Nagell
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Reged: 10/07/07
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Re: New DR project [Re: xausa]
      #82498 - 16/07/07 06:24 AM

Hello again

Bramble - Yes thank you it helps a lot. I got the message now and will do as you suggest and cut the headspace after the barrels have been fit in the monoblock. This gives rise to new questions; the reamers sold by Triebel in Germany do not have the rim on the reamer, but have a special rim cutter. Is this the usual way or do the reamers from Pacific Tool cut the rim together with the chamber? Further is it necessary to buy the rough reamer or do you get the barrel maker to rough cut the chamber? 450 NE no 2 sounds fine to me. Have you bought RCBS dies, or does Pacific make them together with the reamer as suggested earlier?

Hi Andreas

I got the proof pressure from Ellis Brown who has it from “The standard Directory of Proof Marks” Gerhard Wirnsberger (1978).

Hi Bananza

I havn´t even thought about sleeving the barrels. What is the pro et contra on sleeving versus fitting new barrels? Won’t sleeving make for a mussel heavy gun?

Regards

Nagell

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Bramble
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Re: New DR project [Re: Nagell]
      #82502 - 16/07/07 07:58 AM

Yes dave kiffs have the rim cut as part of the reamer.

I used a finish reamer to do the whole job. A roughing reamer is only necessary if you are going to do a lot of chambers as it saves wear on the finish reamer. For our amateur purposes a finish alone is all we need.
Give the reamer to the barrel maker/machine shop, get them to chamber it until the rim cutter just touches the breach end of the barrel and stop. Then assemble and smoke down the barrels and then do the rim cut and final chambering by hand which will also govern the final headspace.

I have RCBS dies and they perform quite well enough. I do use other more expensive dies for long range/high volume calibers, but for this they are great. They came from Huntingtons as did the cases.

As to the weight of your finished rifle mine weighs 11 1/4 lbs finished.

If you go to one of the US barrel makers web sites they have weights of barrels in various contours which may help approximate the weight of your finished gun.

Regards

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Dogdigger
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Loc: Oregon
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82506 - 16/07/07 08:32 AM

Nagell,
I'm close to starting my simson project so your post is timely, good luck with it.

Bramble,
What contours did you end up going with?


Thanks,
Dogdigger

I'm new to the board so hello to everyone.

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Bramble
.375 member


Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: New DR project [Re: Dogdigger]
      #82509 - 16/07/07 09:05 AM

One of the members here was kind enough to measure their origional ones for me and I used those contours.

I don't have those to hand but it is in one of my archived threads about 9-12 months ago.

The barrels were made by Lilja and they would have them on file as I paid a special set up charge.
If you were going to use the same profile with Lilja, i believe that it is a one off charge and if you PM me I will send you an e-mail you can show to Lilja giving you permission to use my profiles.

Regards

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3sixbits
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Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alaska
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82532 - 16/07/07 02:06 PM

I wonder why you fellows don't use some of the home grown barrel makers? I know I would have given Border a call and talked to them. Wouldn't that have saved a lot of money and trouble?

Border has a vary good reputation here in the States. A Google search should provide the contact information.

Just curious?

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Dogdigger
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Re: New DR project [Re: 3sixbits]
      #82533 - 16/07/07 02:19 PM

Bramble,
Thanks for the reply.
Dogdigger

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: New DR project [Re: Dogdigger]
      #82566 - 17/07/07 04:45 AM

3sixbits.

Border are twice the price even shipped.

Regards

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3sixbits
.224 member


Reged: 11/07/07
Posts: 41
Loc: Alaska
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82589 - 17/07/07 02:48 PM

That's of interest, in the US the prices shown are competitive. Why do they soak you guys?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82703 - 20/07/07 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bramble:
Do the same with the cartridge you plan to use. ie 450 3 1/4 NE av. 34,000psi = .233 x 34,000 = 7927 lbs
16 g at proof pressure is .430 x 32,000 = 13,760lbs



No. The original pressure standards for these cartridges (17 tons for the .450 NE; 13 tons for the .450 No. 2) were BaseCUP measurements of bolt thrust, not chamber pressure in PSI. For your calculation above, CIP standardized pressures in true PSI (radial chamber pressure) should be used, as that is the current standard that factory ammo for the normal load can be loaded to. Further, that standard is used to determine the legally required proof pressure.

The .450 Nitro Express has a CIP Max Average Pressure of 3050 BAR or 44,236 PSI, not 34,000 PSI. In other words, CIP permits factory ammunition in the normal load to produce this AVERAGE pressure. Using your calculation for base area: .233 X 44,236 PSI = 10,307 lbs thrust, not 7,927.

Quote:

This does not mean that it wont work but it should be bourne in mind. This was why i used the .450#2 as the ave pressure is 26,000 psi. For the same balistics.



Again, not the correct pressure data. For comparison, CIP max average chamber pressure for the .450 No. 2 is 2800 BAR / 40,610 PSI. Base diameter is larger than the .450 NE though. Using your method for calculating base area then: .251 X 40,610 = 10,193 lbs thrust.

Hmm. Not a lot of difference.

Quote:

My rifle was re-proved at 52,500 psi.



Actually, it wasn't. Since the London Proof House didn't have any proof loads for .450 No. 2, and simply oiled a handloaded cartridge instead, you have no idea what pressure it was proved to. I still can't believe the criminal did that.

Britain is a member of CIP, so CIP proof standards are law there. CIP requires proof cartridges for rifles to produce 125% of the standard MAP for the cartridge. MAP for the .450 No. 2 = 2800 BAR / 40,610 PSI. Proof is therefore 125% of that - 3500 BAR / 50,763 PSI (not 52,500). Thus the current standard pressure mark for the .450 No. 2 is "3500 BAR" - as yours is now stamped, even though the actual chamber pressure that it sustained during proof was unknown.

Quote:

you are using up a lot of the safety margin.



You can put that up in lights. Actions are not proved, complete guns are. There is no "safety margin" until the "conversion" is re-proved - properly.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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Nagell
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Reged: 10/07/07
Posts: 5
Loc: Denmark
Re: New DR project [Re: Bramble]
      #82813 - 22/07/07 04:31 AM

Bramble

I’m been working a bit with the barrel contour from one of your previous treads and the barrel weight calculator on Pac-Nor´s web page. With the somewhat smaller shank diameter of my 16 gauge, I’ll end up with a weight of each barrel somewhere between 2.50 and 2.78 Lbs on a 24´barrel. The latter is with the same barrel contour as the existing 16 gauge barrels. (Using the contour of the 16 gauge might make it possible to use the old ribs as they are, but the gun would probably be mussel heavy?) This will give me a total weight of aprox. 9.16 lbs plus a little extra for quarter rib ect. Have you been able to calculate the balance point?

regards

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