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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Paradox and Bore Guns

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Marrakai
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Bore-Gun Weights and Charges
      #81903 - 05/07/07 10:49 PM

There has been some speculation on these forums lately about the 'normal' gun-weight and charge-weights for bore-guns. Here's a start.
Feel free to add to the corporate knowledge if you can, but please, factual data and measurements backed up by references. Save the opinions and speculation for another thread!

Firstly, from Hollands' publications, including their 1910/12 Catalogue, and supplementary data on the Paradox in "A part of the Holland & Holland Collection, with a Brief History of the Company and Notes on Related Subjects, 1976':

12-BORE
Most common charge for a 12-bore rifle = 5 drams. Range is 3 to 9 drams.
The two 12-bore rifles shot during the 1883 Rifle Trials were 11 1/2 lbs and 13 1/2 lbs.
Most 5-dram 12-bore rifles weigh 10 to 11 lbs.
The 12-bore spherical ball weighs around 585 to 600 grains.
The most common weight for a 12-bore conical ball was 850 grains.
The 12-bore was considered to be the 'work-horse' with a wider range of weights and charges than either the 10-bore or the 8-bore.

10-BORE
Most common charge for a 10-bore rifle = 8 drams.
Gun weight varied between 12 1/2 and 14 lbs

8-BORE
Most common charge for an 8-bore rifle = 10 drams.
Most 8-bore rifles weighed 15 to 17.5 lbs.
Velocities around 1500 fps are quoted for conical bullets.
The 8-bore spherical ball weighs 875 to 895 grains.
The most common weight for an 8-bore conical ball was 1150 to 1250 grains

Actual 8-bore rifle ballistics:

Conical Ball Gun: Weight 17 lbs 8 oz; Barrel Length 28"; Projectile 1257 grains; Charge 10 drams;
MV 1500 fps; ME 6273 ftlbs; 100yd Velocity 1272 fps; 100yd Energy 4511 ftlbs.

Spherical Ball Gun: Weight 17 lbs 8 oz; Barrel Length 28"; Projectile 892 grains; Charge 10 drams;
MV 1654 fps; ME 5232 ftlbs; 100yd Velocity 1193 fps; 100yd Energy 2720 ftlbs.

The trajectory of both these rifles is virtually identical to 150 yds. Note the much higher retained energy of the conical bullet at 150 yds, despite starting 150 fps slower at the muzzle.



HOLLANDS' PARADOX GUNS
12-bore Paradox:- Gun weight 7 1/4 to 7 1/2 lbs; Fosbery bullet 670 to 735 grains; charge 3 drams, MV ~1000 fps
12-bore Magnum Paradox:- Gun weight 8 to 8 1/4 lbs; Fosbery solid 750 grains; charge 4 1/2 to 5 drams; MV ~1200 fps
12-bore 'Long Range' Nitro Paradox:- as for Magnum Paradox, but compound bullet and dram-equivalent nitro powder.
10-bore Nitro paradox:- Gun weight 12 1/2 to 13 lbs; Fosbery solid 875 grains; charge 8 drams equivalent nitro powder.
8-bore Paradox:- Gun weight ??; Fosbery or compound conical 1150 grains; charge 10 drams equivalent nitro powder.


Well, that's Hollands' stuff as far as I can determine, more to follow....!


BTW:
Tom Oppel's two 12-bore rifles mentioned in his article 'British Bore Rifles' specify as follows:
Baker Spherical ball gun, weight 10 lbs 4 oz, 5 dram load, twist rate ~1:100 inches
Richardson Conical ball gun, weight 10 lbs 6 oz, 5 dram load, twist rate between 1:50 and 1:60 inches


Hope this is of some interest...

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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Marrakai
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: Marrakai]
      #81908 - 06/07/07 12:28 AM

Here's WW Greener's views on the subject at the time, from 'The Gun and Its Development':

The Double 4-bore with 20-inch barrels weighs 14 to 18 lbs; charge weight 12 to 14 drams; spherical ball 1510 grains.
Most were smooth-bore for use up to 60 yds max.

Double 8-bore:
Paper-Case Rifle: spherical ball 1092 grains.
Brass-Case Rifle: conical ball 1310 gr.
Gun weight: 20-inch barrels 11 1/2 lbs; 24-inch barrels 15 lbs.
Charge weight 10 drams, up to 12 drams with spherical ball.

A Greener 8-bore shot at the 1883 Field Rifle Trials with 10-dram load and spherical ball weighed 'only' 13 lbs.

This table of recommended bore-gun weights is presented:



It appears that Greener varied the gun-weight according to barrel-length, rather than charge weight. It is not clear whether the gun-weight dictated the barrel-length, ie if a customer specified an 11-pound 10-bore, then he got 26-inch barrels whether he liked it or not!

More to follow.....

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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peter
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: Marrakai]
      #81913 - 06/07/07 02:21 AM

keep them coming marrakai, this is good reading stuff

peter


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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: peter]
      #81950 - 06/07/07 11:19 PM

Here's a very comprehensive table from Tolleys, copied out of Hoyem's "History and Development...., Vol.3"



And also from that fine publication, a bunch of bore-gun ballistics originating from J.H.Walsh's "Modern Sportsman's Gun and Rifle, Vol.II" (thought I'd leave you with this to ponder since I have a busy weekend coming up! ) Enjoy!





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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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gatsby
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: Marrakai]
      #81988 - 07/07/07 05:13 PM

Marrakai,
Excellent post. I would like to add a couple of tables from Frank Findlow's article "Some Thoughts on 12 Bores" from the DGJ[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=504226&c=500&z=1"][/url]

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: gatsby]
      #82095 - 09/07/07 01:18 PM

Thanks Gats. It's a pity Frank did not include the gun weights in that second table,
he must have had specific figures in mind to be able to calculate recoil in ftlbs.

BTW, which issue of DGJ is that article in? I have just loaned about half my DGJs
to a mate to read during his visit to Darwin.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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gatsby
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: Marrakai]
      #82103 - 09/07/07 05:27 PM

It was Autumn 2002. I understand what you mean concerning recoil. How much recoil do you think Omni-Bobs 4 bore single generates? +/- 17 lbs and 14 drams of black +/- 2000gr bullet?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: gatsby]
      #82692 - 20/07/07 05:11 AM

gatbsy - W.W. Greener tested all bores on a recoil mahcine of his own manufacture. The machine's highest level was 200 pounds and the 4 bore was enough over that that it broke the machine, while the 8 recorded normally.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: DarylS]
      #83087 - 26/07/07 10:12 AM

....crikey.

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empirevr
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: empirevr]
      #87095 - 14/10/07 10:09 AM

Hmmm

I'll take that 4-bore single from Tolley please. Fired with ultra light loads!!!

Ben


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gatsby
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: empirevr]
      #87127 - 15/10/07 02:32 AM

Empire,
The four's are hard to come by. Still looking or...?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: gatsby]
      #87131 - 15/10/07 03:15 AM

Gatsby-

Nope, got a gun finally.(500 bpe)

But thinking ahead, as a 4-bore single would go down a treat, whether or not i'll get a shotgun and have sights added/barrel shortened is another matter.....(4 bore)

Hundreds of good 8's out there......4 is just that extra bit 'special' i suppose.

That Tolley above(always liked Tolley's) sounds like a lovely piece of kit though i must say.

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: empirevr]
      #87148 - 15/10/07 09:29 AM

After shooting a fully loaded 8 bore, you, Ben, will NEVER want to shoot a 4, please trust me on this. Perhaps a 20 year old's retinas might remain attached, but maybe not yours. How much is your sight worth? A well loaded 8 bore will be found to possess more than enough recoil to make you think you've shot a BIG bore gun, I am sure.\
; A friend has a nice 5 bore, ball and shot gun, muzzleloading, that he has used at local trap shoots. With only 3 ounces of shot and enough of a charge to get about 1,000fps, it absolutely smokes the birds from the 16 yard line. The gun's 12 pound weight is a bit cumbersome for trap, but allow one to get on the bird before the cloud of shot has depelted itself. He has stated he'd never shoot a 4 bore as his 5 is big enough. It was a 6 bore until re-furbished by Holland and Holland.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: DarylS]
      #87180 - 15/10/07 08:07 PM

Daryl, hi how are you?

Oh i agree, however i had downloading in mind.......and as heavy a gun as poss to boot.

Ball and shot gun would be right up my street.....know of any yourself that are ever going to be for sale? Seems these go straight to auction for $15,000+ and single barrels $10,000+........

Muzzle loaders are more affordable, but not terribly so, all the big bore rifles/paradoxes are pricey now it seems.......aimed at some form of wealthy collector i guess.

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: empirevr]
      #87188 - 15/10/07 11:18 PM

That site you had noted prior- with the 10 bores, one by WC Scott - very nice and around or under $4,000 cdn.
; I should add to this, that any of the better sahpe 10 bores could easily be turned into "Jungle Guns" by merely shortening the barrels and installing sights. Properly loaded, a smooth bore is amazingly accurate, if my 12 double was any indication. I felt it quite capable of deer shooting out to 100 yards, and had more than enough power for moose, elk and big bears.
; I used smokeless-for-black loads as they kicked less than 1/2 of what the BP loads provided. Greener's book showed 2 19th century loads for the 12 bore - a light 4-1/4 dram load and a heavy 7 dram load, both with spherical balls. My smokeless duplication loads matched the heavier 7 dram load, but with less than 10,000LUP breech pressure. The BP load kicked like H$ll in the light 7-1/2 to 8 pound gun.
: A 10 bore "jungle Gun' would make a very formidable 'brush-gun' and would handle shot as well as ball. With the wonderful wads available today, and hard shot as well, one can almost achieve modified patterns from a cylinder bore - one need only 'experiment' and properly pattern one's gun. There are many 'tricks' in developing tight patterning cylinder bores. My bro's 'new' Manton 14 bore cap lock scatte gun is a case in point. We got it shooting 85% at 26 yards with only 1 ounce of shot. This makes it a 35 to 40 yard duck gun, quite easily, something most cylinder bores aren't good at. Of course, a slightly modified load shoots normal open choked patterns. Same can be done with any cylinder bored gun with shot.
: The trouble with down-loading or squib-loading a big bore is the tremendous trajectory you end up with. It is not fun shooting a gun that requires several feet of elevation to hit at 100 yards, after getting a 25 yard zero. You don't have to drop the powder charges much to lose a great deal of veloicty. With shot, you get similar extremes of trajctory and no killing power. I believe it best to use a gun that can be used as intended so it delivers it's 'best' performance.

Edited by Daryl_S (16/10/07 01:12 AM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: DarylS]
      #87214 - 16/10/07 03:23 AM

In in all the old british guncatalogs op the the period of WW1, the 10Bore load is with 8drams of blackpowder. The 10 borerifle I have bought at Champlin Firearms shoots with 3.25" brass....Is that the normal length for the 8 dram load??.
In a Holland & Holland catalog(1890) there is a 12Bore doublerifle that can be ordered(back then) with a an extra powerfull 9 dram load....what was the brass length for that one????.


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gatsby
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: rigbymauser]
      #87239 - 16/10/07 03:27 PM

I like your thinking. There were at least 2 10 bore case sizes (diameter not length) in the Holland 10's. A .775 diameter "paper case" gun and an .805 diameter "thin wall" brass gun. A 2 7/8" .805 case accommodates 8 drams of black and an elongated bullet (.968 in length) nicely. A 2 5/8" .775 case accommodates the same bullet and only 6 drams of black powder. A 3 1/4" .775 case would probably be an 8 dram gun or more but shoot the gun and let it tell you.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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ellenbr
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: gatsby]
      #98362 - 05/03/08 03:53 AM

Is anyone shooting a 1860s R.B. Rodda 12 bore double rifle and would the above 6 drams apply? Also, what muzzle velocity would have been approached in regulating(around 1300f/s)?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Edited by ellenbr (05/03/08 04:03 AM)


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rigbymauser
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: gatsby]
      #98380 - 05/03/08 07:29 AM

Quote:

I like your thinking. There were at least 2 10 bore case sizes (diameter not length) in the Holland 10's. A .775 diameter "paper case" gun and an .805 diameter "thin wall" brass gun. A 2 7/8" .805 case accommodates 8 drams of black and an elongated bullet (.968 in length) nicely. A 2 5/8" .775 case accommodates the same bullet and only 6 drams of black powder. A 3 1/4" .775 case would probably be an 8 dram gun or more but shoot the gun and let it tell you.




I fired here this last weekend a full 10 dram(270grain) load...pushing a 900 grain bullet. Recoil was really up there...but it was fun and my adrenelin was pumping..I was thrilled
I would not be afrain to fire an 8 bore..actually..looking forward to it one day
I am glad the gun weighes 14Ibs though.
An 3.25" 10 bore can take 10 drams as a maxload with 900grain...maybe 11 drams if roundball being used.

Edited by rigbymauser (05/03/08 07:36 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: Bore-Gun Weights and Charges [Re: rigbymauser]
      #98405 - 05/03/08 02:00 PM

This is the method I use for centering slightly undersized round balls in the bores. It also works for shooting undersized balls through any choke, yet perfectly centres the ball in the bore for best accuracy. The gas-check portion of the shot cup will spin the ball in a rifled arm as well so it's not just for smoothbores.
: The mould is a Jef Tanner mould, with Lyman handles. He will make any size for around $30.00 last price I've seen.
; The steel shot wad has a nice cup facing up, with a squarish gas check powder side. The trap wads, when fingers are cut off, are flat. When using black powder, always protect the plastic with a hard card wad, so the plastic doesn't melt onto the bore. Shown in the picture are three sizes of balls for shooting in a 12's large and small.- .684" for use in full chokes, .715" for use in Modified and .742" for over size and .75 cal.(bare) and .77 cal.(patched) muskets. I currently am using a .725" mould for my 12 bore, cylinder bore loads.


--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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