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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
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KDMCustom
.224 member


Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Arizona, USA
700 grain .458 cast bullets
      #81875 - 05/07/07 06:16 AM

I'm working on 2 heavy weight cast bullets for the .458 Win Mag/Lott & 460 Weatherby. One is a 640 grain wfngc and the other is a 720 grain wfngc. Does anyone have any experience with 600 - 700 grain bullets in a 458/460 rifle? I know and have worked with the Barnes 600 grain Originals. They were quite accurate and penetrated well. I loaded them to 1900 fps in my 458 Win Mag. I would greatly appreciate any info and/or input.

I also would like someone to do some accuracy and penetration testing for me. Third party is always more credible than the manufacturer. So anyone who loves shooting a .458 Win Mag, .458 Lott or .460 Weatherby and would like to participate, please PM me. I'll provide the bullets for the testing.

--------------------
KDM Custom
Big Bore Reloading Service
Your Brass + My Labor

Edited by KDMCustomBullets (19/07/07 12:27 PM)

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jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: KDMCustom]
      #81882 - 05/07/07 11:43 AM

The largest I have seen is the 550gr. bullets. I have some on order.

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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: jro45]
      #81884 - 05/07/07 12:40 PM

What twist are you going to use with those bullets? I would think it would be best to go faster than the standard 1-14". Probably 1-10" would be good.

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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 500grains]
      #81899 - 05/07/07 09:17 PM

> I also would like someone to do some accuracy and penetration testing for me. Third party is
> always more credible than the manufacturer.

It would be my pleasure.

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Schamankungulo
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: Tatume]
      #81902 - 05/07/07 10:07 PM

I sent you a PM last night , I volunteer as well ..

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #81939 - 06/07/07 12:13 PM

I'd like to encourage you guys to use a standardized media that can be duplicated by others.

If interested, read my post here:

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....2ec2a8611bb9760

I have found these media to be excellent though I have only used the setup with expanding bullets and a few cast bullets. If anybody wants to discuss the setup, etc, please feel free to pm me or post here.

A bullet "test" is absolutely meaningless unless there is some way to compare the tested bullet with others of a known performance level. Really, what you are doing is making a comparison. A KNOWN excellent-performing bullet/velocity should be used as a control. I test a lot of bullets using my jugs & boards. Such testing can be VERY useful in predicting the performance of a given bullet on game. I now test every bullet I intend to hunt before using it on game.

The intended purpose of the bullet needs to be established before the test results can be assessed. As far as the heavy weight bullets you describe are concerned, what is their intended purpose? Is the intent to provide a bullet capable of being used on buffalo and elephant, i.e. as a replacement for expensive jacketed bullets? A noble goal if so, and one I believe may very well be able to be achieved depending on alloy and velocity. I would think the 600 would be a top end weight for such a purpose in the .458, maybe a lttle heavier in the larger case rounds, though due to the limitations of alloy strength, velocity will certainly have its effect in such cases as the .460.

I'm thinking that the length of the 700 grain bullets may demand a bit more twist than some production .458 rifles possess, but maybe the accuracy will not be impaired until the range reaches 200 or more yards.

Based on my experience with 400 grain bullets in the .45-70, I am really curious as to the possibility of developing a bullet/alloy/velocity combination that could be used on thickskinned, heavy & dangerous game. Such a load could take these big bores from being the most expensive guns to shoot to being some of the cheapest.

You guys really make me want to buy a .458...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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KDMCustom
.224 member


Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81940 - 06/07/07 12:41 PM

The intention to to provide a solid for large and dangerous game. The custom alloy is heat-treated to a BHN of around 20. This heat-treated alloy does not fragment nor mushroom or smear.

You are absolutely correct, penetration must be compared to something. I think John Linebaugh's penetration tests are the comparison. The penetration test shows the bullet's ability to remain stable while traveling through wet media. This is what I'm most interested in because stability while traveling through muscle and bone is what really matters.

I have a 45-70 bullet design and alloy specifically for large and dangerous African game. It's a 550 grain WFNGC in a heat-treated custom alloy. A very similar design has taken the Big Five. The muzzle velocity is 1550 fps. Currently, Randy Garrett makes the ammo. I will offer the hard cast bullets and also loaded ammo for sale very soon.

--------------------
KDM Custom
Big Bore Reloading Service
Your Brass + My Labor

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: KDMCustom]
      #81941 - 06/07/07 01:24 PM

Interesting.

Have you shot the 700 grain bullet for accuracy from various twist barrels already?

Depending on alloy, a cast bullet can be shorter than a jacketed bullet for the same weight, so I imagine a 700 cast bullet be stabilized better than would a similar weight jacketed one. Regardless, it must nevertheless be a really impressive looking, long bullet!

Can you point me to a writeup on the performance of your bullets on heavy game?

Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81948 - 06/07/07 11:07 PM

KDM:

To add a couple more questions to the above...

Can you outline the media into which you want your bullets shot?

I have seen in print a couple different materials stated to be used by Linebaugh so I am not sure what you intend to use.

Also, why a 700 grain bullet? Is there something lacking in a lighter-weight bullet, or some particular performance advantage you foresee with the 700 over say a 500-600 grain weight?

Thanks.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Tatume
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Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81959 - 07/07/07 02:36 AM

> Can you outline the media into which you want your bullets shot?

If I have sufficient phone books, I will test these bullets for penetration and expansion. As phone books come out in early spring here in Eastern Virginia, I cannot supplement the supply, so I may not be able to stop these bullets. My procedure is to bundle the phone books with string, and soak the six-inch bundles in barrels of water overnight. The water must be replenished about midway through the soaking period. The bundles are then stacked horizontally on a table at 25 or 50 yards. My 320 gr 45 cal pistol bullets at 1400 fps penetrate 40+ inches. Bullets cast of two parts wheelweight and one part linotype and dropped into water do not expand at all. If cast of wheelweight and air-cooled they rivet rather nicely. Penetration is the same for both. At 700 gr and possibly 1500+ fps, I expect to need at least 60 inches of phone books. We’ll see. Take care, Tom

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: Tatume]
      #81963 - 07/07/07 04:56 AM

One thing about wet pack is that it often yields a result just the opposite of what is seen in the field on game. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use it, just that it's not a good predictor. The Linebaugh results are an excellent example, which as I recall rated the 25-20 higher than the .500 NE.

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Marrakai
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Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3487
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 500grains]
      #81975 - 07/07/07 10:05 AM

Aww, C'mon 500grains, that's deliberately misleading.

The .500 Nitro SOFT POINT driven at a stupid 2500 fps (way too fast!) blew the first 4 inches of wet-stack completely off the rack, and still created a 4" wound channel more than a foot deep. The second one at 'proper' velocity made over 2 feet. The .500 solids penetrated 48 and 55 inches. Where's the surprise here?

The .25-20 solids made 14-inches at the slow velocity, and 20-inches at the slightly higher velocity. Entirely consistent with what we would expect from a low-to-moderate velocity solid.

Linebaugh Penetration Test Results

I do agree, though, that wet phonebook penetration should not be used to predict actual penetration on game, but in fact it is probably no worse than any other medium. As I have stated many times it is the perfect way for the layman to COMPARE the performance of one bullet against another, and to check the expansion characteristics of a particular soft-point. Its big advantage?: it is cheap and available, compared with ballistic gelatin (the industry standard).

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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KDMCustom
.224 member


Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81980 - 07/07/07 01:07 PM

Quote:

KDM:

To add a couple more questions to the above...

Can you outline the media into which you want your bullets shot?

I have seen in print a couple different materials stated to be used by Linebaugh so I am not sure what you intend to use.

Also, why a 700 grain bullet? Is there something lacking in a lighter-weight bullet, or some particular performance advantage you foresee with the 700 over say a 500-600 grain weight?

Thanks.




Media - Wet newspaper/magazines

Why - I believe in heavier bullets at lower velocities. I favor velocities of 1500 - 1600 fps. The old 4 and 8 bores did very well at stopping the Big Five.

--------------------
KDM Custom
Big Bore Reloading Service
Your Brass + My Labor

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KDMCustom
.224 member


Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81981 - 07/07/07 01:18 PM

Quote:

Interesting.

Have you shot the 700 grain bullet for accuracy from various twist barrels already?

Depending on alloy, a cast bullet can be shorter than a jacketed bullet for the same weight, so I imagine a 700 cast bullet be stabilized better than would a similar weight jacketed one. Regardless, it must nevertheless be a really impressive looking, long bullet!

Can you point me to a writeup on the performance of your bullets on heavy game?

Thanks.



No, I have not shot a 700 grain 458 bullet but I have shot many 700 grain 500 S&W loads. Amazing penetration at 1200 fps.

The 700 grain 458 bullet is longer than a 600 grain jacketed bullet. How much longer? I don't have the numbers yet but proto-types will be ready in 2 weeks. Photos will be posted ASAP.

Performance data is not yet available but I have a good number of willing shooters. I'll provide the bullets and they get to shoot them. I should have some actual game performance later this year.

--------------------
KDM Custom
Big Bore Reloading Service
Your Brass + My Labor

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9.3x57
.450 member


Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: Marrakai]
      #81982 - 07/07/07 01:38 PM

I do not like phone books either, for a variety of reasons. I have shot many different materials but finally settled on the jugs and boards. The recovered bullets look very much like bullets recovered from game and the results are consistent from bullet to bullet.

I'm not sure if there is really anything that can "duplicate" animal bodies...except animal bodies.

That testing {for service pistols} I've done on sheep and goats, but it is no real help either since getting two bullets to hit the same amount of bone and muscle is really difficult. However, my stock shooting at least put to rest the notion of the existence of "stopping power" among service pistol catridges.

A homogenous medium like the wet phone books isn't a "bad" bullet testing medium. It is, however, in my experience, very easy on the bullet and makes for classic mushrooms where classic mushrooms may not be created by the impact with game. The jugs & boards media is far better in this regard.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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KDMCustom
.224 member


Reged: 01/04/07
Posts: 38
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: 600 - 700 grain .458 cast bullets [Re: 9.3x57]
      #82822 - 22/07/07 06:35 AM

Here are some photos of the first batch. I'll be sending some to a few volunteers from this forum for testing.







--------------------
KDM Custom
Big Bore Reloading Service
Your Brass + My Labor

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