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Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles

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edmhunter
.224 member

Reged: 16/03/07
Posts: 26
Loc: Ill.

Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse?
#81646 - 02/07/07 12:52 PM

I was looking at the chart for recoil and it says that a 458 win is less recoil than a 416 rem, rigby. Is this correct? How does the big bores compare to 12 ga.slug guns for recoil?
http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: edmhunter]
#81647 - 02/07/07 01:25 PM

IMHO I feel my 416's are worse than the 458WM I shoot.

Some of this is probably related to the venturi effect of the necked down 416 cartridge in the Rigbyand the amount of powder burned.

That said I feel a full bore 458 Lott is worse than the Rigby, either of which will make your 12 ga slug feel like you are shooting a 22 rifle.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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allenday
.333 member

Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: edmhunter]
#81704 - 03/07/07 01:32 AM

I've shot both the 458 Win. Mag. and the 416 Rem. Mag. extensively, and have hunted with both in Africa for DG.

Between those two cartridges, there's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the 458 kicks worse. On top of that, it doesn't shoot as flat and it isn't as versatile.

AD

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Mike_McGuire
.333 member

Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: edmhunter]
#81715 - 03/07/07 03:27 AM

I agree with AD that the 458 has "more jolt" to it than the 416 Rem. However, I would put them in the same class and so I would be suprised if there is a 50/50 split on opinions.

I think if there were the Hornady type bullets available in 416 like 375 and 45 then the 416 Rem would get a lot more air time.

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jro45
.300 member

Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
#81717 - 03/07/07 03:37 AM

My 416 Rem has 56.28 ft lbs of recoil and my 458 Lott has 73.22 ft lbs of recoil but the Lott seems easer to shoot off the bench.

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xausa
.400 member

Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: edmhunter]
#81733 - 03/07/07 05:55 AM

The chart you refer to shows that the .416 cartridges have less recoil velocity across the board than the .458 cartridges. In my opinion, recoil velocity, rather than recoil energy, is the deciding factor as far as comfort is concerned. Having said that, there is precious little difference, and stock fit, or lack thereof, can reduce or magnify the difference.

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: xausa]
#81741 - 03/07/07 10:10 AM

I own both and have shot them quite a bit as well--in my case the .458 Win definetly has more recoil than the .416--having said that--the stock, weight of the rifle, how it fits you will also make a HUGE difference..

It is quite apparent when shooting different double rifles in the same caliber .. not all guns are created equal nor do they fit equal..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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jro45
.300 member

Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: xausa]
#81772 - 03/07/07 11:02 PM

Yes it depends alot on how the stock fits you with any rifle and my CZ 458 Lott fits very well.

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jimatcat
.224 member

Reged: 04/04/06
Posts: 15
Loc: victoria texas, usa... 125 mil...

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: jro45]
#82842 - 22/07/07 11:36 AM

i can't tell the difference between my .416 rem mag m70 crf and my whitworth .458 win mag....i have a new-to-me m70 that i'll get to shoot in a couple days... traded the whitworth for it...

--------------------
go big or go home

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BillfromOregon
.333 member

Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
Loc: Sweetwater, by God Texas

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: jimatcat]
#89068 - 16/11/07 03:12 AM

My experience here is with a Ruger No. 1 in .416 Rigby and a No. 1 in .458 WM rechambered to .450 Nitro Express, and the latter clearly had more rearward punch than the former. However, I have decided that the No. 1 at least with factory stocks delivers more FELT recoil to my sorry ass than a properly stocked bolt gun. I even find the No. 1 in .375 H&H unpleasant, especially compared to a nice Model 70 Safari in the same caliber.
That said, the most brutal felt recoil I have experienced is shooting 12-gauge 3-inch 1 5/8 ounce turkey loads in an H&R single shot. I'd rather take a shot on the nose from Ali in his prime than do that again.

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: BillfromOregon]
#89101 - 16/11/07 01:31 PM

I found it!! A recoil table that is---

http://www.accuratereloading.com/recoil.html

Found a page on recoil from Accurate Reloading.The bullet velocities are not listed but I assume they are max standard loads.

Interesting that the 416 Rigby is listed as worse than the 458 WM, but at that level stock fit ,etc, may be the difference in the "felt" factor.

In any event my 500 nitro gives me enough max smack to keep me happy.Maybe I need a 505 Gibbs to keep it company??

Think I am going to pass on shooting a 600 nitro or even a 577 NE.

A 577 lite would be another situation though--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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DDouble
.300 member

Reged: 17/02/06
Posts: 127
Loc: Brazil

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: BillfromOregon]
#89102 - 16/11/07 01:32 PM

Xausa,

You seem on the money with the coment on recoil speed X recoil energy.

My 9.3x74R light double has brutal recoil particularly on the bench. My .470 nitro recoil feels more like a push (and thus it is not as punishing). Of course the .470 gun is much heavier.

Where can I get the tables for recoil speed and recoil energy???

--------------------
Ddouble

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Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: DDouble]
#89127 - 17/11/07 12:53 AM

For comparing recoil of cartridges, I like this website.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/rescources/calculators/php/recoil.htm

If you use a single rifle weight you get a direct comparison.

Take care, Tom

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dok
.275 member

Reged: 21/04/05
Posts: 87
Loc: NT, Australia

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: Tatume]
#89181 - 18/11/07 12:10 AM

From someone who owns a 416 Rigby (Ruger Bolt) and a 458 wm (brno bolt) on the bench, the 416 is more severe, but when shotting off hand at a buffalo i wouldn't be able to tell the difference. I hate shooting my rifles at anything other than a trophy, or meat (or a bit of fun).

The 416 is more of a big push where the 458 is a sharper kick.

--------------------
DOK

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jro45
.300 member

Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: dok]
#89277 - 19/11/07 11:47 AM

The 416 Rem with a full house load will let you know that its there with a big shove. The 458 Win will give you a big push but not a shove. Thats the way I see it. Everyones different.

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JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: hoppdoc]
#89462 - 22/11/07 04:11 AM

Quote:

A 577 lite would be another situation though--

Where would you say the 577 light would fit on the comparison scale?

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#89466 - 22/11/07 05:29 AM

X2 or better.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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TNRAT
.224 member

Reged: 23/11/07
Posts: 8
Loc: South TN

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: edmhunter]
#89570 - 23/11/07 02:47 PM

I have shot 416 Rem and Rigby and 458 WM in Ruger No 1's. The Rem was least amount of recoil, 458 was most.

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: TNRAT]
#89575 - 23/11/07 04:48 PM

Because it's just the nature of the beast, even a 375 H&H in a #1 is bothersome.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#89578 - 23/11/07 05:41 PM

A full load 577 lite would caculate out similar to a 500 NE --about 86 ft pnds and a recoil velocity of 23 ft/sec in an 11 pound gun.A bit more than a 470 NE.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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jro45
.300 member

Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: xausa]
#89668 - 24/11/07 11:14 PM

Quote:

The chart you refer to shows that the .416 cartridges have less recoil velocity across the board than the .458 cartridges. In my opinion, recoil velocity, rather than recoil energy, is the deciding factor as far as comfort is concerned. Having said that, there is precious little difference, and stock fit, or lack thereof, can reduce or magnify the difference.

I must agree. The Stock and Recoil Velocity Are what makes recoil. Both of my 416 and 458 Stocks fit fairly well But I have shot some other rifles where the stock did not fit as well and there was more recoil then expected.

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Shackleton
.300 member

Reged: 11/08/07
Posts: 203
Loc: Iowa

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: jro45]
#89694 - 25/11/07 03:34 AM

This one's a bit OT, but wondering where a heavy 10 gauge turkey load sits compared to these(for those who have shot both)-all I know is at game I don't feel it, and at a target it gets punishing quick. I'd like tio get a bigbore at some point but if possible would like to keep recoil close to that level(what I know I can handle-morer might be possible but that's as far as I've gone).

--------------------
"I do not kill with my gun, he who kills with his gun has forgotten the face of his father. I kill with my heart."--Stephen King

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: Shackleton]
#89698 - 25/11/07 05:04 AM

Shooting my Whitworth in .458, I find that the 500 or 510 grain bullet at ~2100fps is 'easier' to shoot than the 350gr bullet at 2450fps.

That 350/2450 is similar to some 416 loads, yet any typical recoil calculator would show up as 'not as bad' as the 510/2100

Having said that, I could shoot either of those two loads all day long in the rifle mentioned as it's built for the job, weighs enough for the work, and fits me properly.

For what it's all worth, when I got this 458, I also was offered a 416. I chose the 458 -mainly- due to the much greater bullet selection. There are lots and lots of .458dia bullets out there to choose from, some of them very affordable, not so much with the 416. Also, I see the 458 as a more versatile cartridge.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: Shackleton]
#89713 - 25/11/07 09:22 AM

Shackleton,

As to your question on the 10 gauge versus the 416 or 458--I have a 10 gauge double that I used to use for shooting geese in N Dakota over decoys--it is a heavy double but I have to say the recoil is less of it than any of my .416's or .458...Again however,, stock fit and weight of the gun makes a huge difference--get one that fits and it's not bad at all..actually enjoyable in moderation..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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k80
.333 member

Reged: 07/05/04
Posts: 314
Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.

Re: Recoil on 416 vs 458 win which is worse? [Re: Ripp]
#91138 - 10/12/07 01:56 PM

Yes I agree the 458 is is a bugger in the
350 grn. and 400s. I preffer the 500s for
everything just for the differnce in recoil.
The 350s etc. the recoil is sharp the 500s
are " more of a push".
Will try a Whitworth 458 this week. It seems
a bit light. I think it will make a big differnce.
Might be for sale on Thursday.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas

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