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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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empirevr
.375 member

Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4"
#81573 - 01/07/07 08:44 AM

Which is better and why?

I know the 577 well but not the 12b rifle round.

The 12b is 1.5 lbs heavier, does this mean it is a more potent round?

Am i correct in thinking both will average around 3,800 ft lbs muzzle energy?

I have had a quote on restoring the very rough 12b to spotless condition, at 6,000 dollars.

The 577 is also rough, but could come in at less i suppose.

Its a toss up between the two.

12b is 800$ and the 577 is 3000$, the latter will end up bringing them level in cost i reckon.

Many thanks

Ben

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Marrakai
.416 member

Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3591
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81575 - 01/07/07 09:47 AM

The answer to this one is purely personal desire, you are either going to really want a bore-gun or you're not!

If you really want one, then you better get it or the regret will probably eat you up eventually!

The .577 is the more practical choice IMHO, as it is a more versatile hunting calibre today than it has ever been (read what I really think here!

). But if you are hunting largish quarry at shortish ranges, a properly set up 12-bore would give-up nothing to the light .577 IMO. ...and both are simply marvellous vintage Brit nostalgia!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: Marrakai]
#81604 - 02/07/07 12:18 AM

Thanks

Any loading data for the 12b though?

is the 12 a large bore and the 577 a medium??

Many thanks!

Ben

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: Marrakai]
#81608 - 02/07/07 01:04 AM

Marrakai!

Your posts are always a great joy to read!!

What a super account of a great gun and a great hunt {Fat Lady}. My first American ancestor was an Irish bad boy and was sentenced to "transportation" to the colonies about 80 years before the Brits started shipping criminals to Oz. Man, if he'd have been more careful maybe he'd have stayed home and then his grandson could have got caught doing something nasty and sent Down Under instead and maybe we'd be neighbors!

I'd sure like to follow along on one of your buff hunts!

Thanks for another doozy of a post!

Incidentally, that gun looks like it is just begging for a cast bullet load at the 1650 fps muzzle speed.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: 9.3x57]
#81613 - 02/07/07 02:22 AM

1st of all, gun weight has nothing to do with power.
; If you are referring to the 12 bore with the badly pitted breech faces and firing pin holes, I'd pass.
; empirevr - Both are handloading propositions - are you going to now learn how to handload?
: If in reasonable shape, the .577 would be the one to get. If it's bores are no better than the 12, I'd pass on both.
: You need a bore condition that can be rectified to reasonably smoth and shiny it's full length to shoot lead bullets. Bores with rings of pitting, as some you've sent me are toast. Pitted bore that won't shoot lead, will sometimes still shoot jacketed bullets, however there are no jacketed bullets for 12 bores and none that I'm aware of for the BP .577's.
; You may be able to shoot undersized balls or bullets in the 12 bore, if using shot wads to protect the bullet from the rough bore, but the bore will plastic foul form abrasion with the bore. Also, the BP charge will melt plastic wads ans spray the insides with melted plastic. Been there, done that. Fibre wads can insulate plastic wads from the BP, but not stop abrasion fouling.
: As to loading data, use as much BP as will fill the case, minus the bullet or ball and wads.
; Black powder + the wads makes up 100% of the case capacity. It must be a slighlty compressed charge for the BP to burn properly and safely.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: DarylS]
#81615 - 02/07/07 02:38 AM

Daryl, thankyou.

From what you say, i think the 12b is the one to go for,and i shall simply accept renovating it.

Also, -and though i do not mind the prospect of paying for loads to be made for the rifle- from what you say i should have it relined to say 577x3" given that this shell is far easier to get, due to its modern counterpart, along with its modern counterpart's bullets being viable too, no?

Daryl, you have mail.

Many thanks

Ben

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81629 - 02/07/07 06:41 AM

Step 1: Buy both.

Step 2: Shoot both.

Step 3: Sell the one that you don't like.

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5521
Loc: United States

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: 500grains]
#81630 - 02/07/07 07:00 AM

Quote:

Step 1: Buy both.

Step 2: Shoot both.

Step 3: Sell the one that you don't like.

+1

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: 9.3x57]
#81631 - 02/07/07 07:26 AM

Hmmm,

Step 4: Get out of hospital with at least partial vision in one eye, sell both as neither is ready to be used as is!!!!!!!

The 577 is off-face, the 12b is on face and pitted to death.

Step 5: wait for gunsmiths to come back with yae/nae on the 12b and the 577 respectively.

Watch this space.

Ben

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81643 - 02/07/07 10:55 AM

You mean this entire discussion has revolved around a wall-hanger and a tomato stake?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81664 - 02/07/07 04:05 PM

Quote:

I have had a quote on restoring the very rough 12b to spotless condition, at 6,000 dollars.

The 577 is also rough, but could come in at less i suppose.

Its a toss up between the two.

12b is 800$ and the 577 is 3000$, the latter will end up bringing them level in cost i reckon.

Let me get this straight...a 12 bore DR for $800 that needs $6000 of work vs. a .577 BPE for $3000 that needs $3000 of work? Is that right? If so, you haven't found a rifle yet. The purchase prices and the amount of work needed clearly indicate that both are wall hangers. Unlikely that either will be worth the investment when you're done.

Ben, I hate to say it, but you have somehow acquired a very unrealistic view of these rifles. Unless you just want to learn about BPE double rifles the expensive way, stop wasting your time with junk. They're no different from the vintage nitros. There are lots of used up old wall hangers out there, and then there are those that are actually worth paying money for. Nice BPEs, with no pitting, just aren't that hard to find. They're not my cup of tea, but a friend just bought a really nice Holland .500. No pits, excellent bores, accurate shooter. He had no trouble finding several nice ones to consider. They just aren't cheap anymore.

If you want one that bad, save your money and spend what it takes to get a good quality BPE in excellent condition.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39883
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#81670 - 02/07/07 04:34 PM

The 12-bore if it looks good enough in my opinion may be worth purchasing as a wall hanger.

And for occasional fun just shooting it.

Whether it is good enough as a serious rifle, only examining it may tell.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26998
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: NitroX]
#81687 - 03/07/07 12:10 AM

Ben sent me some pictures of the 12 bore, breech face and tubes - you wouldn't want to shoot it, trust me on this. It is a wall hanger only. Re-making the gun with lining it's thin walled tubes as well as welding up and re-finishing the faces just isn't worth it, to me.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: DarylS]
#81699 - 03/07/07 01:06 AM

Hello

Well.......

Yep, they are indeed rough, and i am willing to send anyone photos no probs at all.

Now, the thing is, can someone please show me a bpe or such, in decent condition, for a fair price.

400nitro what were the other ones your friend looked at?

Even a 500 bp would go down a treat......

Daryl i think i'll send photos of a 577 which may fit the bill better.....see, i dont trust my own opinion as i am too used to seeing these rifles full of pits and holes.

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81702 - 03/07/07 01:24 AM

Quote:

Now, the thing is, can someone please show me a bpe or such, in decent condition, for a fair price.

Perhaps thats the rub. What do you consider "fair"? Asking price on the Holland was about $14k, and he got it for less.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81703 - 03/07/07 01:26 AM

Empire,
I know you are located in Italy. What is the procedure to get a bpe from the US into Italy?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: gatsby]
#81711 - 03/07/07 02:46 AM

Hi

Seems i have found a 450x 3.1/4" in great nick for about $4,000 so lets leave the rough guns out of it then!!!!!!!

Procedure Gatsby? a horrid one, which is why i would be shipping the gun to my UK addy.

Only problem then is the shipping costs.....

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: empirevr]
#81718 - 03/07/07 03:41 AM

Wonderful! Well, what have you found?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.

Re: 12b 2.5" vs 577x2.3/4" [Re: gatsby]
#81719 - 03/07/07 03:49 AM

A fully restored 450 with superb bores and no replacement bits!!!!!!!!!!!

Check your pm in a moment......

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