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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal??
      #81399 - 28/06/07 01:36 AM

Spoke with friends at a party this weekend and talk turned to various animals and their potential danger and desirability.
Most every hunter wanted to hunt Africa if affordable, hunt Ele because of their size, Buff and Lion for danger, and rhino because of their unusual prehistoric appearance and size.

One whitetail guy said-No Way!! That could be dangerous and we have great hunting here!! How about Brown Bear?? Same answer.Whitetail=safe stimulating hunting by shooting in a controlled situation.

Two took issue with the Leopard as a free roaming dangerous encounter like the other big 5 due to its nocturnal habits and the usual method of hunting--i.e. shooting it out of a tree and not on the ground.One felt if danger and size made the big 5 then how about the hippo on land??

Interesting!!

Any leopard advocates out there?? Any hippo proponents?

Edited by hoppdoc (28/06/07 02:07 AM)

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SAHUNT
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Reged: 27/12/04
Posts: 900
Loc: Centurion, RSA
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81403 - 28/06/07 03:37 AM

The big five
Elephant, Buffalo, Rhino (preferably a black one), Lion and Leopard.

For the dangerous 6 you add the hippo.

--------------------
Life is how you pass the time between hunting trips.
Sometimes I do not express myself properly in the English language, please forgive me, I am just a boertjie.
Jaco Human
jacohu@mweb.co.za
SA Hunting Experience

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xausa
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Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81407 - 28/06/07 04:46 AM

I can only recount my experience with a leopard.

Seated in a blind, late in the afternoon, eighty yards from a bait in a tree which a leopard had visited the night before. Krieghoff .375 protruding through the shooting hole, my white face turned away from the hole, the two gun bearers, Kaoli and Keribai sitting opposite the hole, observing the bait.

Suddenly a whispered word, "Chui!" I turn from where I had been sitting and peer cautiously out the hole. I can see something on the branch above the bait, shining bright gold in the light of the setting sun. I look through the scope. A big leopard is lying along the limb, reaching down with his left foreleg for the bait.

"Doumi?" I whisper (Is it a male?). "Ndio" (yes) is the reply. "Piga" (shoot).

I line up the shot. I am thinking, "This is the most important shot I have ever tried. If I wound this animal, it will fall into the thick brush directly under it, and we wil have to go in after it. Me with my DR and the two gun bearers with their shotguns and buckshot. Leopards are indescriminate, they wil attack anybody when wounded. Unlike a lion, they will not concentrate on one person and allow the others to dispatch it from a safe distance. A leopard will give everyone a piece of the action, and what they like to do most is grab a man by the shoulders with their fore paws and rake his midsection with their hind paws. I can't miss and be responsible for getting these two brave men injured or killed."

I aim directly between the shoulder blades. The shot breaks. The 300 grain bullet flies toward its target. Nothing happens. NOTHING HAPPENS !!

I have shot cats before. As a quail hunter, I had been taught that a stray cat more than 100 yards away from home was more than fair game, it needed to be shot. Cats I had shot in the past had jumped straight in the air, yowled, screamed, run in circles before dying. They seemed particularly tenuous of life. This one did nothing. I had shot at the only deaf leopard in East Africa and missed.

I reached for the second trigger. The shot breaks. Nothing.

From behind me comes, "Bas, piga, kufa." (Enough, you hit it, it's dead.)

We cautiously leave the blind and head toward the tree. Suddenly the leopard's hindquarters slide off the limb and he remains hanging, draped over a branch. While we are standing there, the Land Cruiser arrives, bringing the PH and the tracker, who had heard the shots.

Up the tree goes the tracker and down comes the leopard. The two shots are less than an inch apart, both breaking the vertibrae. The cat was stone dead after the first shot and had not moved a muscle.

Vast relief.

Dangerous unwounded? Probably not. Wounded, definately!

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Charles_Helm
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Reged: 09/11/05
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: xausa]
      #81424 - 28/06/07 12:29 PM

Fron another board, we read the story and saw the pictures of some gentlemen who were mauled this season by an unwounded leopard that was being hunted with dogs. However, like the Cape Buffalo (at least so it is said) they reportedly do not usually attack unless wounded OR looking for food (there are plenty of cases of man-eating leopards).

Of all the dangerous animals, the leopard is the one that in my mind concerns me the most. So fast, attacking without warning, usually the chance for only one shot in poor light...

I have hunted Ingwe only once, and he got the better of me, but if my time and money hold out I will try it again.

--------------------
Some pictures from Namibia

Some pictures from Zimbabwe

An Elephant Story

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hoppdoc
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #81431 - 28/06/07 05:31 PM

In the Dangerous 6?? Of course!! MS an african hunter friend lost an armed camp hand on a safari to a leopard on a hunt who went in the bush to relieve himself!!

Leopards have been known to be maneaters on par with lions,and I believe Capstick called them ??assasins and he was an avid cathunter.

My bud just didn't think that a Big 5 animal should be shot off a tree limb at dusk. He wouldn't want to wait in a blind. Didn't seem right to him--

Of course if I am ever fortunate to actually bag a leopard I will not complain.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81440 - 28/06/07 11:01 PM

Quote:

In the Dangerous 6?? Of course!! MS an african hunter friend lost an armed camp hand on a safari to a leopard on a hunt who went in the bush to relieve himself!!

Leopards have been known to be maneaters on par with lions,and I believe Capstick called them ??assasins and he was an avid cathunter.

My bud just didn't think that a Big 5 animal should be shot off a tree limb at dusk. He wouldn't want to wait in a blind. Didn't seem right to him--

Of course if I am ever fortunate to actually bag a leopard I will not complain.



Classically they are one of the Big 5.

I've never hunted them but they were the only African animal that ever really gave me the willies when I lived and travelled over there. For one reason or another I used to have to walk at night from one friend's place to another's and the thought of those things {along with snakes in the trail which were a constant nuisance} always bugged me.

I've hunted cougar here in the states and they have a reputation for running after hit in a similar way that housecats show an explosion of a activitiy after they get thumped. I don't see why a leopard would be different.

As for maulings when running with hounds, that is to be expected. A game animal being run with hounds is in a state of such hopped-up-idness {hoppdoc, that's a medical term } that aggressive behavior is to be expected. Such aggressive behavior happens with the bear we run frequently, and dogs oftimes get cut up in fights. I would not class a hound-chased leopard "unwounded". In fact, I'd suggest that approaching a bayed up hounded leopard is probably more dangerous than approaching a wounded one if my bear experience means anything!

As for Capstick, good grief. The guy would have you believe your life expectancy is 24-hours at best after you disembark from your aeroplane in Joburg.

I mean, dangerous critters? Injuries? Deaths by Big Animal? Anybody have any idea how many cattle and horses kill and maim people in the USA? Not the place here, but I can tell you personal and other accounts involving the hazards of working around such animals and a word search on the i-net will reveal more. Hanging around a small-town, rural ER or clinic will be instructive. I bet by all counts and counting there are far more American farmers & ranchers who die in the course of farming than hunters in Africa...

My point here is that a hunter going to Africa shouldn't psyche himself out about the supposed dangers that lurk under every toilet seat or in every patch of long grass. Such a mental condition CAN result in blown shots there {or here} and serves to be a self-fulfilling prophesy. Carry a stick to the latrine and look where you put your feet and, I guess, don't walk around alot at night by yourself unless you have to...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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larcher
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Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: Charles_Helm]
      #81446 - 29/06/07 12:01 AM

Quote:

Fron another board, we read the story and saw the pictures of some gentlemen who were mauled this season by an unwounded leopard that was being hunted with dogs.



Charles, will You be the good guy and provide the reference of this post?
thanks
jb

--------------------
"I don't want to create an encyclopedic atmosphere here when we might be having a beer instead" P H Capstick in "Safari the last adventure."

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: larcher]
      #81473 - 29/06/07 01:57 PM

In India individual leopard were recorded as killing into the hundreds of victims. As a killer of man, individual leopard probably exceed lion and tiger (in Africa and India). But for some reason there have never been the factually recorded accounts of leopard as a mankiller in Africa. I wonder why? Perhaps it is more accepted? Or blamed on lions?

When you hunt in Africa, ask your PH if he has ever had a close encounter (ie injury) with a Big 5 animal. Almost every time if they have had one it is from a leopard. But also almost always the leopard fails to kill. The injuries can be horrific though.

The experts seem to think leopard ranks definitely in the Big Five, so I don't see many today that have the experience to argue with them.

***

JMO but even though it has been suggested Hippo makes up the Big Six, maybe if hunted on land. If sniped in the rivers from a riverbank hide other than size I disagree. The species however is the biggest killer of Africans from the animal kingdom.

***

PS Its the tiny "5" that kill, the tick, the mosquito, the snake, the virus organism, the STDs.

***

PPS I have not had the pleasure of taking either animal yet, so the above is all just armchair theorising. One day ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (29/06/07 04:04 PM)

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: NitroX]
      #81476 - 29/06/07 03:01 PM

Quote:

***

PS Its the tiny "5" the kill, the tick, the mosquito, the snake, the virus organism, the STDs.

***




Thanks for putting it in perspective.

These discussions of "dangerous game" must be put into perspective.

For example, where I kicked around in the Congo, crocs were THE pest, killing dogs and on occaision people, too. But it was a story to be told when somebody got the chop which was, statistically, rare.

Malaria, diarrhea and other diseases aggravated by AID's just plain clear house and animal attacks don't come anywhere close to them as killers.

Some years ago before California banned cougar hunting I read a report from a game biologist who suggested that the cougar is in effect a very similar animal to the leopard in habits and, in proximity to humans will, if numbers of them are large enough, seek out and attack humans as well as game. This has turned out to be quite true where the cats are not harrassed and persecuted. Around these parts cougar are a nuisance, attacking dogs, eating cats, etc, even in town. A friend has had to shoot one in self defence and a neighbor had a horse attacked. Cats have moxie. But I don't personally know anybody who has been attacked. What would have happened to my friend is I guess anybody's guess as he was in deep snow and the advantage was all the cat's except for his Model 28 Smith which evened things out a bit. And the rest of us don't get too far from a pistol even if a rifle isn't close at hand and cougars are of course persecuted. I personally have never had an unplanned incident with a cougar though I did get spooked once by one that leapt off a rock ledge not ten yards in front of me as I was grouse hunting but that critter was headed for Montana, not headed for me.

But now since the Feds dumped them on us we have a lot of wolves, and I have had them in my ski tracks, so the felines have competition...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81488 - 29/06/07 09:47 PM

Quote:

My bud just didn't think that a Big 5 animal should be shot off a tree limb at dusk. He wouldn't want to wait in a blind. Didn't seem right to him--





I have hunted them and would venture to say if your "bud" ever faced a charging leopard on the ground his thoughts and view would change dramatically. Most who have never hunted one have the same impression, however there is a whole lot more than ploping yourself into a chair and waiting for a leopard to come by. On one of my trips to Africa, some of my friends and I visited a camp one day while driving to the airport. They had a leopard in an enclosure that had been trapped---we walked around the end of the fence that was about 20 meters--when the cat saw us he came, and I mean, HE CAME---I have NEVER seen any animal cover ground that fast in my life, period.

I too have hunted North American cougars and bears,, have taken several of each and have had bears come at me after being intially hit..trust me, I have NEVER seen anything ever come close to the speed and verocity that was displayed by the leopard that day.. They have all my respect in the world.. and yes, I plan to hunt them again..it's awesome.

I agree you can't work yourself into a frenzy before you go hunting in Africa, but it is nice to discuss these topics and see how others view them.. entertaining to say the least..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: Ripp]
      #81497 - 30/06/07 12:24 AM

Ripp:

Maybe the problem with conceptualizing the whole thing for some people is that hunters tend to think in terms of a mental "movie", SEEING the animal in an almost slow-motion, special-effects sort of way, with a mental picture of mounting the rifle/shotgun and sighting down the barrels and breaking the trigger and seeing the hit or miss of the shot etc. and wondering how they will react as they react.

This of course is nonsense. No "charge" of any animal is dictated by the hunter and such an occurence may not even register in the mind of the hunter till after the fight is over. This is why discussions of this sort while entertaining and interesting can be self-defeating from a mental aspect IF the hunter thinks that while chatting about it he will be able to predict how this or that will unfold.

The best preparation for all gun work is lots of practice from FIELD POSITIONS, combined with good physical fitness. Building as much instinctive reaction as possible is the answer to any attack. There is simply no time to "think about it" when a fight starts. I learned that when I woke up on the mat when I used to box and while recovering from injuries caused by livestock. I have been attacked by several head of cattle, a few horses, an old, mean Hampshire ram {yup, sheep!} and a bear over the years and though they are not leopard, I can say without doubt all those critters caught me totally offguard and admittedly flatfooted. A couple were stopped with guns and one mean stallion quite literally with my fist. Much of this is simple stock work and farmboy stuff if you like, but many animals can kill a guy. Maybe modern people are so fascinated with "mean animals" because they rarely interact with animals?

Anyway, the point is animals have brains, too and they don't wait to ask permission to go sour. For example, the little 200 lb foal that kicked me in the face didn't "get that look" or "have an evil eye" or present some such dramatic warning. It just kicked me in the face.

I have read reports and seen video testimony and witness of cougar attacks and in all of the cases the persons involved had essentially no time to react even had they been armed. My buddy's situation was different as the animal had not yet made its rush. It came off a cutbank, landed in deep snow, took a step or two toward him, crouched and as he heard the slight squish of the snow he had already turned with his gun in his hand. Maybe it wasn't even going to attack him. He shot it anyway.

Your description of the leopard in the cage is a good one for those who think they might have time to quote a paragraph from "Death in the Long Grass" before mashing the trigger. For those that have never seen a big cat move I suggest they watch Muffy the Mouse Catcher jump in one leap from the floor to the top of the china cabinet some time. That should be enough to convince them that an 8-stone Muffy must be an impressive performer.

That's why as I mentioned leopard gave me the creeps at night while strolling unarmed in their environs.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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xausa
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81508 - 30/06/07 03:13 AM

Another feature of leopards which is perhaps overlooked is how strong they are. Once, while hunting on private land in Kenya, we were driving down a road adjacent to a game fence: 9' chain link topped by barbed wire. Suddenly we noticed wool clinging to the barbed wire on top of the fence. We stopped and examined the evidence.

The trackers determined that a leopard had crossed the fence from the outside, killed a full grown sheep, carried it back across the fence and had stored it in the crotch of a tree some ten feet off the ground. We actually found the half devoured sheep still in the tree. The leopard, of course, was nowhere to be found. Imagine how much strength that feat would have required in human terms!

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shakari
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: xausa]
      #81521 - 30/06/07 06:12 AM

I'd say they fit very firmly into the Big 5 and if anyone thinks it's easy to shoot one from a blind probably has never hunted one that way. The work, effort, thought and mind games to get them there is usually phenomenal.

As to strength, I once found a dead Leopard kill about 20 feet up a tree......doesn't sound anything special until I tell you it was a fully grown waterbuck male and the horns measured 32 inches. - And I gotta tell you a wounded Leopard at night is a fearsome thing to track........

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: shakari]
      #81534 - 30/06/07 11:13 AM

Read several articles that suggest it is the stealth and cunning of the leopard along with the fearlessness and ferocity of the animal that put it in the Big 5.

Articles about these cats are impressive analyzing the apparent thinking mind and senses of a big mature cat.Concerning indeed!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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shakari
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Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81538 - 30/06/07 04:36 PM

They're certainly clever as hell. Whilst we were hunting the Leopard mentioned in my recent thread we found 2 fresh Leopard kills. Examination of the spoor showed us that the cat involved had, on both occasions used us to flush the game towards them as we were hunting.

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
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Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Is the Leopard a Big 5 animal?? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81554 - 01/07/07 01:07 AM

Quote:

Ripp:

I have read reports and seen video testimony and witness of cougar attacks and in all of the cases the persons involved had essentially no time to react even had they been armed.
.




YOU are 100% correct--a couple of seasons ago, a friend of mine and I were bow hunting by Yellowstone National Park..he was on one side of the draw and me on the other---he suddenly heard a noise above him.. he looked up and saw a boar grizzly staring at him at about 50 yards..he was carring a .44 S&W on his hipp--the bear charged--my friend dropped his bow and went for his handgun--he did NOT have time to clear leather and the bear was 10 yards from him--thankfully the bear stoppped---chompped his teeth a few times and turned --slowly quartering away.. my friend said he felt all the blood drain from his head as he thought this was it--going to the big hunting grounds in the sky.. he also said there is NO way he could have fired a shot before that bear would have been on him.. upon closer inspection we discovered that the bear was feeding on a elk carcass and was making sure we knew it was his...needless to say we stayed out of there for the next couple of weeks..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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