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pjb
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Need advice on which powder to use???
      #81196 - 24/06/07 04:12 AM

I'm trying to figure out which powder or powder substitute to use in my brand new kodiak .72. I'm new to muzzleloading. I hear a lot of good things about Swiss powder. How about GOEX Express or Graf & Sons? Do many use H777? Thanks PJB

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Dphariss
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: pjb]
      #81987 - 07/07/07 04:58 PM

I would stay with BP.
FFG should work fine.

Dan


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Tatume
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: Dphariss]
      #81989 - 07/07/07 08:27 PM

I use Hodgden 777, and love it. It works well, and is the easiest to clean of any black powder substitute I've tried. It is far easier to clean than black powder. I also recommend T/C 1000+ Bore Butter. However, regardless of any advertising claims, same-day cleaning is mandatory. Take care, Tom

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: Tatume]
      #82011 - 08/07/07 04:00 AM

I'm with Dan. I'd use real BP, and in 2F granulation. I would not under any circumstances use bore butter. Tests and results from other shooters shows it builds up in the bore. Black powder gives closer shot to shot pressures and therefore better accuracy potential.
: Currently, I am using LehighValley lube, sold by trackofthewolf. It has proven to be the cleanest shooting, most accurate lube so far and I've tested hundreds of different lubes over the years, including bore butter. It was poor.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DoubleD
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #82015 - 08/07/07 04:32 AM

Just like with smokeless powder in blackpowder, one size does not fit all.

Not only do different granualtions of black powder have different burn rates so do different brands of the same granualtion. Smaller granulations have a faster burn rate than larger grains. The type of charcoal used to make the powder will also affect the burn rate.

Just like with smokeless powder you need to try various powders and find which works best for your combination of components.

My CBC 480 grain .464 bullet prefers GOEX 1F and my RCBS 460 .468 bullet likes Swiss 1 1/2 real well.!

I make all my own lubes and don't bother with most of the commercial products. My favorite grease cookie is a paraffin soak felt wad and the fouling stays fairly soft.

I use a 20-1 lead alloy and bullet lube has been either 50/50 beeswax and crisco or paraffin and crisco. I don't get leading with either one.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Tatume
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #82017 - 08/07/07 04:42 AM

I've been using T/C 1000+ since it came on the market, in considerable quantities. Before T/C bought it, it was marketed by Ox Yoke Originals, and I started using it when they introduced it. It does not build up in the bore, and it works perfectly. I use it from the tube to lubricate my own patches for cleaning and for patching round balls. I use pre-lubricated patches. And, I use pre-lubricated conicals, as well as lubing my own conicals, and I use the pre-lubricated over-powder wads. Every one is completely satisfactory. When I put my guns away, the last thing I do is swab the bore with Bore Butter, and they store without a hint of rust for considerable periods.

The choice to use black powder is a personal one. If one is pragmatic, then Hodgdon 777 is a good choice. It is safer to store, cheaper to buy, and it works well and is very accurate in all my guns. Most importantly, to me, is that 777 cleans up beautifully. Powder residue just seems to leap onto a wet patch, and cold tap water is all that is needed. No more boiling water, or pump-cleaning in a bucket, or dish-washing detergent, none of that. Just wet a patch with tap water, swab, dry swab, repeat, run a patch with bore butter, and you're done. I was so taken with 777 that I gave away all of my 2F powder, about 15 pounds of it. I kept some 3F, because I use it as a duplex loading in my flintlocks (777 is hard to ignite in a flintlock). I also kept a quantity of 4F, because no matter how finely I ground 777, I couldn't get it to ignite in the flash pan of my flintlocks. So, black powder has it uses. As a general propellant though, 777 is better. Take care, Tom


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pjb
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #82594 - 17/07/07 09:11 PM

Daryl,

Thanks for the info. I finally went ahead and purchased 10 lbs of Swiss FFG. I just have to learn how to properly clean between shots while sighting in. I will get hold of some Lehigh Valley lube as well. I'm using some blue stuff made in Idaho now, seems to work, but I'll experiment with others.
Thanks,

PJB


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: pjb]
      #82602 - 18/07/07 01:10 AM

I should have stated that bore butter was poor in 'MY' rifle. Others may have different results. I've heard from several experienced black pwoder shooters that bore butter did indeed 'build' up in the bore, especially the corners of the grooves and I trust their statements of experience. One of them still uses it, swears by it's accuracy. I have heard from others that in shallow rifling (buttoned) like some of the produciton rifles, that the bore butter build-up causes accuracy to deteriorate after a number of rounds. The fellow who still uses and swears by it, doens't clean between shots and neither do I, never have other when testing clean visa/vis dirty accuracy shooting. He states he has to use exceptionally hot water to soften the bore butter in his bore on final cleaning for the day, as well as a stiff bronze bore brush to get the 'residue' out of the grooves. Again, it appears all results aren't the same.
: If one has to wipe between shots, how does one reload quickly for a second shot if needed?
: I use only cold weater for cleaning black powder fouling. According to a letter to a friend of mine, from Holland and Holland's (England), cold water is the proper cleaning solution for black powder fouling as it disolves BP fouling almost instantly. Use of hot water, expecially boiling hot water, glazes the fouling, and therefore is a poor solvent for it. Adding soap and especially detergent to the mix only intoduces chemicals to your bore. They are not needed for cleaning black powder fouling. I never use soap in my BP guns. I use only cold water now, (flush cleaning), dry with patches and then spray liberally with WD 40 down the bore, then patch it out with 2 dry patches. It sprays out the vent (or nipple seat) carrying away any residual moisture and leaves a very thin coating, only just damp, then evapourates to a dry bore. My barrels do not flash-rust after cleaning, as happens with hot water, nor do they rust in storage. Flash rusting, caused by the clean hot barrel oxidizing 9condensation due to heat) with moisture in the air is accumulative and will eventually result in pits, especially in the breech area along with the rest of the bore. Such 'ruined' bores can be 'salvaged' by careful lead lapping - I've done a few for friends. Some learned not to use hot water while others ar enow re-rusting their bores. Next time, I'll charge them for my time - 5 hours minimum. It will be cheaper to replace their barrel. This pitting due to a buildup of flash rusting, I've seen in many bores cleaned with hot water, including my own back in '72 when I first started shooting this stuff.
; Again, you may have different results wiht bore butter, maybe not. There are too many other good lubes for me to use that stuff. Spit for target, Lehigh Valley, crisco/beeswax, Moose Snot(murphy's/beeswax/castor-oil) Neesfoot-oil/pine-sol, mink oil or bears oil, for hunting, depending on what the rifle likes and wil shoot clanly enough for up to 5 or 10 shots. I have found only LehighValley or moose snot shoots as cleanly as spit, but of course, spit is not useable for hunting due to rust in the breech and bore if left for a period of time. That result is also accumlative.
;please excuse any and all spelling/typo errors.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Plains99
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #82608 - 18/07/07 04:37 AM

I've had good luck with all of the powders and right now I have several pounds of Grafs. Grafs powder is manufactured by Wano as a private label brand. It doesn't have the velocity of other powders but it is clean burning and relatively inexpensive. I still use Wonderlube and Bore Butter as well. I don't get carried away with it but I believe it helps reduce fouling buildup and makes wiping a bit easier. When using heavy loads of black powder I ran a wiping patch about every three rounds. When I'm hunting that patch is usually just a spit patch but on the range it is patch treated with Wonderlube. I do a lot of hunting with a muzzleloader and never run a wiping patch after each round. If I can't reload in 20 seconds, I'm looking to replace my projectile. If I'm having to use a short starter, I look for a different projectile. None of the old timer hunters loaded the tight fitting projectiles that are popular today.

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Dphariss
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: Tatume]
      #82877 - 23/07/07 01:30 AM

Quote:

I use Hodgden 777, and love it. It works well, and is the easiest to clean of any black powder substitute I've tried. It is far easier to clean than black powder. I also recommend T/C 1000+ Bore Butter. However, regardless of any advertising claims, same-day cleaning is mandatory. Take care, Tom





The visual cleanup may be easier than BP. Getting ALL the corrosive components out is not as easy in my opinion.

Dan


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: pjb]
      #82884 - 23/07/07 02:34 AM

Quote:

I'm trying to figure out which powder or powder substitute to use in my brand new kodiak .72. I'm new to muzzleloading. I hear a lot of good things about Swiss powder. How about GOEX Express or Graf & Sons? Do many use H777? Thanks PJB



:
: Althought some guys use and like T7 or other 'fake' black powders, I find shot to shot consistancy much better with real BP. Swiss is deemed to be the best, however I've never tried it. The only BP we can get here, is GOEX., It's worked well for me, as did the GOX, ICI, Scot and Curtis and Harvey's powders of my shooting, years ago.
: With proper ball/patch combinations, fouling is not a problem for prolonged shooting. The fakes, like Pyrodex do foul less, however fouling has never stopped me from shooting a fulls day's sport. I wipe the bore when I clean it at the end of the day, not during a day's shooting of up to 100 shots.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pjb
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #82891 - 23/07/07 04:05 AM

Daryl,

I must still be doing soemthing wrong. I use Swiss 120 grains of FFG, swab the bore between every shot with a solvent and dry patches, use a 12 ga wad (told this would increase accuracy) and a .010 lubed patch (don't know what type of lube) and .715 RB. And they do not go down easy - especially after 5-6 shots. What should change first? Thanks PJB


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Dphariss
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: pjb]
      #83536 - 04/08/07 01:45 PM

Quote:

Daryl,

I must still be doing soemthing wrong. I use Swiss 120 grains of FFG, swab the bore between every shot with a solvent and dry patches, use a 12 ga wad (told this would increase accuracy) and a .010 lubed patch (don't know what type of lube) and .715 RB. And they do not go down easy - especially after 5-6 shots. What should change first? Thanks PJB




What solvent are you using? It might not be dissolving the powder fouling. Water is hard to beat for BP fouling.
Could be the barrel. Rough reaming of the bore will make them load hard as well. Or it could have a reverse choke in which the bore gets smaller and tighter toward the breech.

I would change patch lubes fro starters.
Some lubricants will squeeze out of the patch where it contacts the bore making the contact patch dry enough to load hard. Sometimes a lube like SPG bullet lubricant will load easier, especially when wiped between shots. I spread it only on the side of the patch that contacts the bore.

Dan


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pjb
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: Dphariss]
      #83661 - 07/08/07 09:53 PM

Dan,

Thanks for the advice. I'll try changing lubes. I just have to be patient and figure ir out.

PJB


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tinker
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #86706 - 07/10/07 01:34 AM

Daryl-

What's your ratios and method for making up batches of Moose Snot(murphy's/beeswax/castor-oil) ?

I'm also looking around for the proper method of letting bear oil from fresh killed bear.
Any suggestions there?



--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: tinker]
      #86929 - 11/10/07 12:19 AM

PJB - .010" patch in a 12 bore is a VERY thin patch - too thin to hold enough lubricant. If you cannot use a .018" to .020" patch, you would be better off using a .690" ball and a substancial patch - one that will hold enough lube.
: Recently, I've switched over to using LehighValley lube, available at Trackofthewolf and other places. It has exceptionally high lubricity, and keeps the fouling soft - no cleaning necessary until one wants to clean after shooting is done.
; Tinker - Moose Snot - I haven't used it for well over a year and find that pure neats foot oil, mixed with castor-oil 50/50 worked about as well. Some guys use only neats foot oil. Note, not Neats Foot Oil Compound, but pure neats foot oil. Best of all of them in my rifles now, is LehighValley lube. It is ever more accurate than spit, which I've used for competition for over 30 years - now, it's Lehigh Valley lube only.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #87004 - 12/10/07 02:58 AM

Daryl-

Thanks for the word.
I'll give that stuff a try, not likely before my hunt in siskyiou in a couple of weeks though.

I went ahead and tried out the 50/50 castor and murphy's patch lube these past few days.

Tried that out with .020 denim in a .50cal caplock rifle my dad had built before he died (I had to do a lot of work to it, including fixing the gouges on the rifling lands, followed up with a lapping job--the maker really screwed the pooch on that one) and got it shooting into an inch at fifty yards from a standing position.

This castor/murphy stuff seems to work pretty well, the fouling is just about soft enough to get a second shot loaded without having to run a cleaning patch down the bore between shots.
Is the Leigh Valley lube even better?


-Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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pjb
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #87034 - 13/10/07 01:34 AM

Daryl,

I sent the first Kodiak back to Cabela's and the one I have now loads and shoots great. The barrels seem to be about.001 bigger I.D.

I currently use a 12 ga wad over the powder (someone suggested it for accuracy) and the .010 patch holds together, but is frayed around the edges. You're saying don't use the wad, use a .018-.020 patch and smaller diameter ball. I use lubed patches ( yellow stuff), but will get some dry material and try the Lehigh Valley lube. Thanks PJB


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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: pjb]
      #87059 - 13/10/07 11:47 AM

All patches fray around the edges from the muzzle blast.
: The reason for the thicker patch, is to hold more lubricant so the fouling stays soft and allows continuous shooting without having to wipe the bore. This may or may not require a smaller ball. In all bores with .010" deep rifling I use a ball that is .005" under bore size with a .020" patch. In every gun I've tested, they've all shot poorer with a thick wad. A single card wad like an over shot card, .010" thick can be used to protect the powder from lube and has shown less effect on accuracy for hunting purposes.
; The most important physical aspct of your gun are the muzzles. The crown must be radiused to allow easy seating of the ball. Your thumb, with 320 grit emery cloth and some oil or WD40 is all that's needed to make a perfect crown on the muzzles. If properly radiused, the ball/patch can be smacked down flush with one blow of your fist. Of course, the starter's shaft is held in the palm, pointed upwards) A flat spot on the starter knob does the smacking on top of the ball. There will be a very slight flattening of the sprue of the ball, but very little at all and it does not in any way effect the shot's accuracy. Loaded this way, my 14 bore makes 1-1/2" or smaller groups at 100 yards for 5 shtos, each every time I shoot it off the bench at that range with it's open, shallow "V" and bead Express sights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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BillfromOregon
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: DarylS]
      #87402 - 19/10/07 04:06 AM

PJB:
Sent you a very delayed PM reply to yours of last June. Very sorry for the delay. I see you are on your second .72. Wish me luck as I am calling Sidney today, as I have been without the most entertaining and satisfying double ML rifle out there for far too long!
Bill


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BillfromOregon
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #87442 - 20/10/07 01:41 AM

By the way, PJB, first thing I do with a Kodiak double is swap out the nipples for the larger musket cap nipples. My theory -- and it is just a wild-ass guess -- is that the much bigger and hotter spark from the easier-to-handle musket cap gives a faster and cleaner burn no matter what powder you are using. I used Goex Fg and FFg in the last Kodiak .72 I had, and when the new one arrives next week I look forward to trying the Swiss I have since stashed. I use both RWS and CCI musket caps. Haven't tried to sort out the difference.

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DarylSModerator
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: tinker]
      #87618 - 23/10/07 03:34 AM

Tinker, whether I use spit for target work, of Lehigh or Murphy's mix, I never have to wipe the bore during an entire day's shooting, whether it's 5 shots or 100 shots. Having to wipe shows the load is wrong - patch too thin, ball too small, or not enough lube.
; The rifle's crown is the most important aspect of a rifle in loading a good combination. If crowned properly, nicely radiused and smooth transition into the bore, one can load tight fitting ball/patch combos that shoot cleanly. If the crown is too sharp, the lands will cut the patch and you'll get blow-by and patch burnnout which results in excess fouling deposited inside the bore. Some guys get around that by using wads between powder and ball for all shooting. I generally use a thin card wad to protect the powder from the patch lube when hunting only. I have found in most of my barrels/guns, that the use of a wad reduces accuracy slightly and is only necessary when hunting. This accuracy reduction is only on the order of 1/2" to 1" or so on target at 50 yards so is not important when hunting. Some guns shoot better with a wad. These are usually guns that are loaded with too thin a patch to shoot cleanly without the wad. I prefer to limit the time necessary to load. A rifle that must be wiped before it can be re-loaded is useless for hunting. How do you load and shoot a fast second shot if it's necessary? Loading should take no more than 14 to 18 seconds. If it does, you need to practise.
; In a large bores, like my old 14 bore or one of the 12's, the use of paper ctgs. can reduce loading time to 8 seconds, including capping, with no loss in accuracy from patched balls and giving the same point of impact.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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pjb
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Re: Need advice on which powder to use??? [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #87719 - 24/10/07 11:39 PM

BillfromOregon,

I switched out to magnum/hotshot nipples and use #11 magnum caps. If I run into problems, I'll switch to musket caps. I've shot 125 grains of FFG Swiss and H777. The only problems I've had have been with H777 and then only if the nipples are not entirely cleaned out. Thanks PJB


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