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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
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Loc: Southeastern USA
Lion attack!!
      #81000 - 20/06/07 12:57 PM

Suppose you where lion hunting with your buddie, he sees a lion first and he hits the MGM type lion hard in the chest with his 375.The lion immediately attacks him, jumps, and you shoot the lion in the center mass like a quail in the air with your 500 NE and your buddie flat misses his followup shot.The lion misses his leap and goes down mortally wounded, runs off and is found dead shortly thereafter.

After the animal is dead he is autopsied and hunters agree BOTH heart-lung region shots would have been fatal.They had agreed to no "rules" before the hunt

Question-
Whose lion is this on this $40,000/hunter lion hunt? Both hunters want the lion.The first shot would have been eventiually fatal but the second shot also mortally wounded the animal had more effect and turned him.Is it who draws first fatal blood or he who closes the deal??

What is the hunting ?(sp)etiquette here??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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David_Hulme
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Reged: 28/03/07
Posts: 65
Loc: Zimbabwe
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81004 - 20/06/07 01:28 PM

The trophy belongs to the guy who drew first blood, whether it was a fatal shot or not.

Dave


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81030 - 20/06/07 08:51 PM

Quote:

Suppose you where lion hunting with your buddie, he sees a lion first and he hits the MGM type lion hard in the chest with his 375.The lion immediately attacks him, jumps, and you shoot the lion in the center mass like a quail in the air with your 500 NE and your buddie flat misses his followup shot.The lion misses his leap and goes down mortally wounded, runs off and is found dead shortly thereafter.

What is the hunting ?(sp)etiquette here??





I agree with above--etiquette dictates the guy with the first shot is the owner of that one--anyone who would claim otherwise is either awefully selfish or a jackass..either way..don't want him for a hunting partner..
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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AzGuy
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Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81087 - 21/06/07 12:56 PM

Quote:

Suppose you where lion hunting with your buddie, he sees a lion first and he hits the MGM type lion hard in the chest with his 375.The lion immediately attacks him, jumps, and.... What is the hunting ?(sp)etiquette here??




In mid jump, this is the time to ask your buddy..."Is he all yours? Or do you want ME to take him?"

The first shooter gets the Lion, the second shooter gets the Trophy!!

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!


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ozhunter
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Reged: 18/08/04
Posts: 1692
Loc: Sydney, Australia
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: AzGuy]
      #81102 - 21/06/07 06:47 PM

The first guy for sure otherwize many PHs would be paying trophy fees.

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peter
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Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: ozhunter]
      #81105 - 21/06/07 07:26 PM

first shot as allways.

peter


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mikeh416Rigby
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Reged: 24/02/03
Posts: 6051
Loc: The beautiful Oley Valley, PA....
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81107 - 21/06/07 08:29 PM

First blood dictates ownership, and payment of the trophy fee.

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81108 - 21/06/07 09:57 PM

no question about it...first blood gets the kill!

we had an instance a few years back where my friend shot a bull moose and it was destined to fall soon enough but another hunter in our goup (but not any longer) had the wounded moose stagger by his watch whereby he finished it off and then proceeded to claim the game.

he insisted that the moose was his as he put the final shot into it...my friend protested albeit in a low key manner and finally let the other hunter have the rack as the meat is always split evenly amongst the hunters.

the next season the rack from the bull was still sitting in this guys yard wasting away on top of his wood pile...when we left the town to go back home after that hunt, the rack was gone, I know that we didnt take it but I am pretty sure that other locals, after hearing the story of how the classless hunter came by the rack, took care of business....on my friends behalf. you shouldnt screw guys ever and you especially should never do it in a small town!

first shot gets the quarry and if you helped with the kill good for you, thats why we call each other hunting buddies and not hunting competitors.

DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


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larcher
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Reged: 11/01/05
Posts: 2655
Loc: Saverne, Alsace, France
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81444 - 28/06/07 11:57 PM

In France we consider it otherwise.

The owner of the trophy is the first who inflicts a DEADLY SHOT.
This rule is often used when boar hunting during driven hunts.

Of course, when a large sow is shot ( a no-no) and we noted at least 10 hits in the sievelike sow, surprisingly.............nobody else has shot a round ..........since at least a week or 2. The fear to be bashed and possibly fined.
Consequently, more and more we come to consider the owner of the trophy will be the first who hits the boar.

This question is academic concerning a lion because previously the hunters have agreed which one will shoot a trophy.

Edited by larcher (29/06/07 12:09 AM)


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9.3x57
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Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: larcher]
      #81469 - 29/06/07 01:03 PM

Look at it another way, legally...

Suppose Hoppdoc's scenario except the No.2 man misses and the critter takes off for parts unknown. In many places #1 pays for the animal collected or not.

It's #1's lion.

After such an adventure #1 might just want to make good to #2 in some major way.

I had a very bad situation with a bear {recounted elsewhere} in which my then-13-year-old son fired the last shot with the muzzle of his rifle shoved into the chest of the bear. The bear was at my feet and my revolver was empty. Granted, he's my son but whenever the tale is told I try my level best to describe the bear as "ours"!

Like Ripp says, for myriad reasons there are people you do not want as hunting partners. I'll take my son anywhere anytime and frankly, he can have the trophies.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81485 - 29/06/07 08:45 PM

A bit off thread but just read a mag article about a Lion pursued in Ethiopia who was a problem animal.He was hit poorly by the client, pursued by the PH and client,then the lion attacked the PH who shot him fatally with a 375 as well as the client's smacking him with his 375.Unfortunatelly, even hit twice fatally with no CNS hits the lion mauled the PH and also got the clients knee before he died.

Lions and leopards earn their VERY DANGEROUS reps in spades!!The first shot must be heart lung or your in deep caca indeed!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81507 - 30/06/07 02:33 AM

Further review of info suggests the above post may be in error whether the client shot the charging lion or not. The PH definitely shot a killing shot with his bolt gun although he ended up getting mauled--

Edited by hoppdoc (30/06/07 02:36 AM)


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ducota
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/07
Posts: 75
Loc: Portugal
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81871 - 05/07/07 05:03 AM

I've been shooting, hunting and bowhunting for more than 35 years here in Portugal, in five other countries in Europe (including France), occasionaly in Canada, US and Australia and in four countries in Africa and everywhere I found the same ethics, when shooting the one who kills is entittled to the quarry, when hunting is the first blood (hooves don't qualify) that scores.
Never heard of Iarcher's method but it's a big world.


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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: hoppdoc]
      #81873 - 05/07/07 05:14 AM

Quote:

A bit off thread but just read a mag article about a Lion pursued in Ethiopia who was a problem animal.He was hit poorly by the client, pursued by the PH and client,then the lion attacked the PH who shot him fatally with a 375 as well as the client's smacking him with his 375.Unfortunatelly, even hit twice fatally with no CNS hits the lion mauled the PH and also got the clients knee before he died.

Lions and leopards earn their VERY DANGEROUS reps in spades!!The first shot must be heart lung or your in deep caca indeed!!





There was actually an article by Boddington this month that describes this very story..I believe it was in Sports Afield. Because of politics the PH could not get his .577 Double he normally carries into the country.. as it was, they were actually not suppose to be hunting lion anyway..however circumstances being what they are..this situation developed and they tried to help out with the troublesome lion.. You are right, two shots, the lion died but not before getting to both the Ph and the client for a little mauling action...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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escard
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Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 158
Loc: austria-europe
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Ripp]
      #81891 - 05/07/07 04:00 PM

here in europe it means: "..erste kugel - letztes schrot....
(in english: if game is to be downed with a bullet-rifle, it belongs to the hunter who hits at first, if game is to be downed with a shot-gun it belongs to the one who made the last shot...)


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Bigfive
Sponsor


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 362
Loc: Freestate,South-Africa
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: escard]
      #81896 - 05/07/07 08:30 PM

First Guy for sure.
#1 Was ready to take the shot, aimed for that specific animal,hit that specific animal(Fatal or not)
With the above 3 statements the #1 was dicided to KILL and to PAY. It was his clear intention that hewant that specific animal. If he failed to do so the first time and needed a little bit assistance then it stays his animal.
I agree with the hunting buddy and hunting competitor theory.
If your buddy drops a US100 Bill and you catch it before it hits the ground does it make it yours?? Certainly not. Same apply in hunting.
Everybody have bad shots now and then and I don't think that it is any true hunters objective to only wound and not kill.

--------------------
"Hunting is a way of life"
Bigfive,South Africa


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gryphon
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Reged: 01/01/03
Posts: 5487
Loc: Sambar ground/Victoria/Austral...
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Bigfive]
      #81922 - 06/07/07 04:37 AM

ok whats the answer if the first shot in the lion was a gut shot? A shot that may have an animal taking a few days to die.

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: David_Hulme]
      #81936 - 06/07/07 09:19 AM

I believe in the first shot rule. Whoever hit it first, even if only in the toenail, gets the animal.

(And I get to keep hunting. )


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: 500grains]
      #81938 - 06/07/07 11:36 AM

500 Grains has is exactely correct---the first hit is the taker-no exceptions ..what kind of hunter would even want an animal that someone else shot??
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: larcher]
      #82078 - 09/07/07 04:55 AM

Quote:

In France we consider it otherwise.

The owner of the trophy is the first who inflicts a DEADLY SHOT.

This rule is often used when boar hunting during driven hunts.





In the case of the lion story, I'd say the first shot.

But what Larcher mentions is not unknown here in Norway when it comes to driven moose hunting. The logic behind this is to try and entice hunters place accurate/deadly shots. Some hunters can be tempted to take an intentionally non-deadly shot at a good trophy, if that's all they can see of the animal, just to draw "first blood". Which generally results in the animal suffering for quite some time, and eventually getting a deadly shot from someone else (maybe even several days later). By a dog handler/tracker for example.

So although I can understand thinking: "Who wants a trophy from an animal someone else already shot?", we can also twist it around to: "Who wants a trophy from an animal they only (intentionally?) wounded, but someone else had to kill?"

Erik


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Ripp
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Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: EricD]
      #82089 - 09/07/07 09:00 AM

Quote:

Quote:

In France we consider it otherwise.

The owner of the trophy is the first who inflicts a DEADLY SHOT.

This rule is often used when boar hunting during driven hunts.





In the case of the lion story, I'd say the first shot.

But what Larcher mentions is not unknown here in Norway when it comes to driven moose hunting. The logic behind this is to try and entice hunters place accurate/deadly shots. Some hunters can be tempted to take an intentionally non-deadly shot at a good trophy, if that's all they can see of the animal, just to draw "first blood". Which generally results in the animal suffering for quite some time, and eventually getting a deadly shot from someone else (maybe even several days later). By a dog handler/tracker for example.

So although I can understand thinking: "Who wants a trophy from an animal someone else already shot?", we can also twist it around to: "Who wants a trophy from an animal they only (intentionally?) wounded, but someone else had to kill?"

Erik





While I agree anything can be turned around.. anyone who intentially shoots an animal to wound it is NOT a hunter--we commonly refer to those as slob hunters--in that they care for nothing but themselves and how they can brag when the hunt is over, telling their office friends how great they are--disgusting to say the least..

We need to stick to the story as it was presented.. I realize people are on this chat room from all over the world and that there are different customs in other countries-as well as there can be thousands of different circumstances-however again, based on how this story was layed out in the beginning-is generally considered in the US that the first blood is the man that gets the trophy--

Thank you
Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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Tatume
.400 member


Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Ripp]
      #82090 - 09/07/07 10:36 AM

Suppose you where lion hunting with your buddie, he sees a lion first and he hits the MGM type lion hard in the chest with his 375. The lion immediately attacks him, jumps, and you shoot the lion in the center mass like a quail in the air with your 500 NE and your buddie flat misses his followup shot. The lion misses his leap and goes down mortally wounded, runs off and is found dead shortly thereafter.

If my buddy shot the lion that was attacking me, after I failed to stop him, I would give him the trophy and volunteer to pay to have it mounted.

--------------------
Take care, Tom
NRA Life Member


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Tatume]
      #82093 - 09/07/07 12:34 PM

Actually I think 2x1 lion hunts are extremely rare, even though 2x1 buff hunts are common.

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Ripp
.577 member


Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Tatume]
      #82116 - 09/07/07 11:10 PM

Quote:

Suppose you where lion hunting with your buddie, he sees a lion first and he hits the MGM type lion hard in the chest with his 375. The lion immediately attacks him, jumps, and you shoot the lion in the center mass like a quail in the air with your 500 NE and your buddie flat misses his followup shot. The lion misses his leap and goes down mortally wounded, runs off and is found dead shortly thereafter. .






Would all of this have happened before or after the tin man and the scare crow were the PH's for the hunt??

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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EricD
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 4636
Re: Lion attack!! [Re: Ripp]
      #82189 - 11/07/07 04:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

In France we consider it otherwise.

The owner of the trophy is the first who inflicts a DEADLY SHOT.

This rule is often used when boar hunting during driven hunts.





In the case of the lion story, I'd say the first shot.

But what Larcher mentions is not unknown here in Norway when it comes to driven moose hunting. The logic behind this is to try and entice hunters place accurate/deadly shots. Some hunters can be tempted to take an intentionally non-deadly shot at a good trophy, if that's all they can see of the animal, just to draw "first blood". Which generally results in the animal suffering for quite some time, and eventually getting a deadly shot from someone else (maybe even several days later). By a dog handler/tracker for example.

So although I can understand thinking: "Who wants a trophy from an animal someone else already shot?", we can also twist it around to: "Who wants a trophy from an animal they only (intentionally?) wounded, but someone else had to kill?"

Erik





While I agree anything can be turned around.. anyone who intentially shoots an animal to wound it is NOT a hunter--we commonly refer to those as slob hunters--in that they care for nothing but themselves and how they can brag when the hunt is over, telling their office friends how great they are--disgusting to say the least..

We need to stick to the story as it was presented.. I realize people are on this chat room from all over the world and that there are different customs in other countries-as well as there can be thousands of different circumstances-however again, based on how this story was layed out in the beginning-is generally considered in the US that the first blood is the man that gets the trophy--

Thank you
Ripp




Ripp,

Like I originally said, in this case there is no doubt that the first shot gets the lion. And I'm sure most people, regardless of country or local tradition would agree.

Interestingly, you mention "slob hunters". And unfortunately, it seems to me that stories of such people pop up far too often when it comes to hunting in Africa and elsewhere. These people are clearly not genuine hunters, but as you say; hunt in order to brag.

Erik


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