Forums.NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact NitroExpress.com: New Double Cartridge needed??

*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

You are not logged in. [Login]

Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

New Double Cartridge needed??
#80813 - 17/06/07 11:18 AM

There seem to be innumerable Double cartridges and one wonders are there any gaps to be filled??

For short range open sight Double scenarios (150 yds or less)it would seem no gaps exist---

Once we consider scopes on Doubles and their capabilities for long range accuracy gaps may materialize--

***If one where to develop an American all round Double I would think a 30 cal wildcat based on the 7x65R shooting 180 gr bullets(a rimmed 30.06 equivilent)would have appeal.It could feature true ejectors, a qd scope and other features(read expensive!!) high end hunters would desire/appreciate.

For those who would hunt elk/moose/grizzly a 338 caliber would be great.The 333 Jeffery Flanged in 338 would be fun or maybe even the 375 H&H Flanged necked down to 338 caliber!!

Does anyone else want to wildcat a Double cartridge for a specific hunying purpose??

What wildcat would you create??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80815 - 17/06/07 11:43 AM

(a rimmed 30.06 equivilent)

It's called the 307 Winchester.

I think we are re inventing the wheel ??????

Plenty of calibres fit the bill.

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 500Nitro]
#80820 - 17/06/07 12:24 PM

If 307=30.06 then great!!What would be the Double equivilent of

270
7mm Mag?
300WM=300H&H flanged?
338WM?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

Sarg
.400 member

Reged: 20/01/07
Posts: 1365
Loc: Nil

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80824 - 17/06/07 02:57 PM

500Nitro, I see you like to correct people on even the smallest things ,so you will find the 307 Win is a slightly less powerfull version of the 308 Win !

hoppdoc ,there is a cartridge called - 30R Blaser which I believe is more powerfull than 30-06 .
Blaser use it in there single shots & double rifles !

Thanks

Post Extras:

EricCioe
.224 member

Reged: 16/04/07
Posts: 17
Loc: University of Chicago & Muskeg...

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Sarg]
#80826 - 17/06/07 03:54 PM

If your criterion for "double rifle cartridge" is that it is rimmed so that it cna be reliably ejected, I have two questions:

1. If it's a long range cartridge, it's not a life-and-death thing if it doesn't eject. That said, there are many here that feel that rimless cartridges eject just fine. I'd like to read what people have to say about that.

2. But I can see why you'd want it to eject every time, so question 1 is a bit void. Still, it seems like it would easier if rifle-makers could come up with a way to eject rimless cartridges reliabely than to keep using bizarre, wildcatted ammo that simply replicates a standard load anyway. Why have a rimmed .30-06 equivalent if a standard .30-06 could be ejected fine, with a new system?

--------------------
Kant, Goethe, Hamsun, Mann, & Heidegger. Ted Roosevelt & Aldo Leopold.

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: EricCioe]
#80828 - 17/06/07 10:03 PM

I would agree that if a reliable ejection/extraction system could be devised using the belt of the "belted" magnums out there that the need for new cartridges would be seriously affected.

Love to have real ejectors on a 7mm mag,a Weatherby 416 etc,a and the multitude of belted cartridges we presently shoot in the states.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80835 - 17/06/07 11:19 PM

Any double rifle cartridge needs to keep pressure in check if one expects it to last. 20 tons is the absolute maximum, 15 tons is much better. With that in mind one should go for a medium caliber and a large case.

I’ve have the opportunity to experiment with my .375 H&H. Stepping down to a 235gr bullet, using H414 powder and finding the slowest regulation load – I have reduced the pressure way back.

Based on that, I reckon that a 300 UM case necked up to .350 shooting a 220 grainer at 2700 fps might fit the bill.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80836 - 18/06/07 12:37 AM

Stupid question--

It has been discussed here before but what predictive relationship can be made between the cartridge pressure in tons and the cartridge pressure in copper units or other methodology?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

500grains
.416 member

Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80837 - 18/06/07 12:52 AM

There have been a handful of doubles made in 30-40 Krag.

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80845 - 18/06/07 03:13 AM

Short answer - none. As long as the methods are linear then a % pressure change due to a charge change will yield the same % in another method.

Hodgdon gives most loads in CPU and Birmingham Proof House uses tones. I think tones times 2200 is close to PIS, not certain.

When working up a load for my .375 I pick the one that was the LEAST, and then reduced it 10%.

One think I have noticed in published pressure is that the last 2-300 fps requires non-proportional pressure.

Accepting 2300 fps instead of 2500 in a .375 knocks close 10% off the pressure.

Modern bullets work well at lower velocities and for short range hunting, why not reduce velocity and save you double rifle.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80850 - 18/06/07 05:38 AM

Again, it may not be linear but Kynoch says the 416 Rigby is at 18 tons with 410gr at 2300+fps.

A loading site lists a similar weigh/velocity with ??powder at 42,000 cup which is of course not equivilent to psi.

Looks like 42,000 may be the max cup pressure for 18 tons or does the tonnage also vary with the diameter/surface area of the hull enclosedby the barrel??

Any engineers or gee whiz guys out there can sing in anytime!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80851 - 18/06/07 06:38 AM

You may have noticed that most of the double rifle cartridges are launching the projectiles at or near 2150 fps. The amount of pressure to do this is dependant on the case volume. A 458 WM produces 18 tones and a 450 No2 11 tones to attain the same velocity. A quick study of the Ideal Gas Law (PV=nRT) will shed some light.

In regards to a break open action, the back thrust of the case causes the frame to asymmetrically flex and stretch. It’s this tweaking that contributes to a rifle coming of face.

When one starts talking about high velocity small bore cartridges, high pressure becomes the bug-a-bear.

A .350 cartridge with the ballistics of a .35 Whelan and pressure of a 450-400 is darn near ideal in my book. It’s called the .350 Rigby

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

Post Extras:

Mike_McGuire
.333 member

Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80860 - 18/06/07 08:32 AM

Big Bore pressure Vs small bore pressure??

Assume we load a 458 Lott and 300 Wby to the same pressure or a 458 Win and 257 Wby to the same pressure. Also assume the amount of powder being used in both big and small bores is the same.

Then if the peak pressure is the same for both big and small bores the average pressure will be higher with the small bores and by a considerable margin.

Is that a factor?

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
#80864 - 18/06/07 10:43 AM

Wouldn't the same weight bullet/same velocity pressure curves of something like the 416 Rem vs 416 Rigby show the 416 with a higher shorter duration curve for the Rem vs a lower longer duration pressure curve for the higher volume case of the Rigby??

Is "tonnage" or cup/psi etc just suggestive of the peak pressure of each round?

Would the area under each curve be similar if the bullet velocity was the same??

I am speculating here, so somebody correct me if I'm confused---

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (18/06/07 10:44 AM)

Post Extras:

Mike_McGuire
.333 member

Reged: 11/06/05
Posts: 348
Loc: Sydney Australia

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80871 - 18/06/07 11:32 AM

Wouldn't the same weight bullet/same velocity pressure curves of something like the 416 Rem vs 416 Rigby show the 416 with a higher shorter duration curve for the Rem vs a lower longer duration pressure curve for the higher volume case of the Rigby??

Is "tonnage" or cup/psi etc just suggestive of the peak pressure of each round?

I think that is correct.

However, a consideration is that it will require a certain amount of pressure for something "to give". For example, one hot load and you have a loose primer pocket but 20 shots of mild loads and the primer pocket remains tight.

Average pressure or pressure under the curve would increase with a longer barrel

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80875 - 18/06/07 12:27 PM

Quote:

Would the area under each curve be similar if the bullet velocity was the same??

I am speculating here, so somebody correct me if I'm confused---

The pressure curve would not necessarily be the same--the .416 Rigby has a larger case than the .416 Remington and therefore operates under lower pressure than the Remington round--and yet they are both shooting around 2400 fps. This is one reason some knock the .416 Remington for hunting during the really hot time of year in Africa--personally I have probably shot 50 plus rounds of .416 Remington while hunting in Africa with no problems what so ever and fantastic performance on everything I pointed it at..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#80886 - 18/06/07 09:56 PM

Whether it is tones, CUP, or PSI – the instrumentation is designed to generate a reproducible value representing “pressure” at a given velocity. That value could be anything including bananas, as long as it is consistent and linear.

The area under the curve and shape of the curve depend on the burn rate of the propellant, and can only be explained with black magic.

However; in Graeme Wrights book he touches on medium versus slow powered. He suggests that slow powders may carry too much pressure in the thin area of the tubes and that medium power like R15 reach peak pressure in the first 6 to 8 inches where the barrels are strongest. Makes sense to me

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Mike_McGuire]
#80888 - 18/06/07 10:15 PM

The Ideal Gas Law PV=nRT states pressure is inversely proportional to volume. If we assume nRT is a constant c then P = c/V.

If we let c equal the chemical reaction of the propellant and call it 1000;

then for a .300 cal that has traveled 5” down the barrel, P = 1000/(.300Pi*5) = 210

for a .458 cal P = 1000/(.458Pi*5) = 140

For the same gas generated by the propellant, the pressure is less in a big bore. Conversely, to reach the same velocity, more propellant is needed.

Post Extras:

Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80890 - 18/06/07 10:45 PM

Quote:

For the same gas generated by the propellant, the pressure is less in a big bore. Conversely, to reach the same velocity, more propellant is needed.

Exactely...

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Post Extras:

dnovo
.333 member

Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Ripp]
#80895 - 18/06/07 11:06 PM

Again we seem to be trying to get a DR to do the work it was never intended to carry out. Long range, flat shooting rifles exist aplenty in bolt actions without trying to consider making a DR fill that role. And while one can get very good accuracy out of a DR, and my W&S in 250-3000 and Merkel 141 in 30-06 are quite accurate out to a reasonable range, why make a design intended for dangerous game or 'meat pot' filling out to 100 or 150yds max work as a Benchrest or Mountain Goat slayer? A bolt costing far less will always function better at longer ranges and a follow up shot with a good bolt action at long range will be only a hair slower if you take the time to learn your rifle.

I shot in informal 300 meter CISM competition with some other elderly farts. Using a Grunig & Elmiger and open sights for the first round (yes I can still do so despite my years) a ten round string within time limits results in a very presentable group. Take the Anschutz diopter sight off the rail and slide on a 36X Weaver target scope and this old fart can still make 10 timed rounds of 6.5X47 Lapuas go into one ragged hole at 300. I have seen others do the same with off-the-shelf Remington 700s.

So let's not get lost trying to turn a good short to medium range DR into what it was never designed for.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (18/06/07 11:08 PM)

Post Extras:

Tatume
.400 member

Reged: 09/06/07
Posts: 1091
Loc: Gloucester, Va USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: dnovo]
#80916 - 19/06/07 05:49 AM

> If we assume nRT is a constant c then P = c/V.
> If we let c equal the chemical reaction of the propellant and call it 1000;
> then for a .300 cal that has traveled 5” down the barrel, P = 1000/(.300Pi*5) = 210
> for a .458 cal P = 1000/(.458Pi*5) = 140

The volume of a right circular cylinder is V = hPi r^2 (height times Pi times radius squared). The calculation then yields
30 cal: P = 1000/5(Pi*(0.154)^2) = 2684
45 cal: P = 1000/5(Pi*(0.229)^2) = 1214

Take care, Tom

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Tatume]
#80919 - 19/06/07 06:48 AM

Thanks Tom,

I was pulling that out of memory, PiR^2 not 2PiR!

But that is important because pressure is actually inversely proportional to the square of the radius. Which really kills the notion of a high velocity small bore being practical in a double rifle

Post Extras:

AzGuy
.333 member

Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: bonanza]
#80923 - 19/06/07 10:11 AM

Quote:

But that is important because pressure is actually inversely proportional to the square of the radius. Which really kills the notion of a high velocity small bore being practical in a double rifle

All of this math is hurting my brain. Guess I'd better call Butch and cancel the order for the 257Wby SxS.

--------------------
Hike the Grand Canyon, you will never be the same!

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#81011 - 20/06/07 03:28 PM

Quote:

Stupid question--

It has been discussed here before but what predictive relationship can be made between the cartridge pressure in tons and the cartridge pressure in copper units or other methodology?

There isn't one because they're measurements of different things.

With respect to the original standards of the British rifle cartridges, "tons" is a measurement of bolt thrust. The British ignored chamber pressure. They standardized their rifle cartridges in base crusher guns that measured bolt thrust using the Base Copper Unit of Pressure yardstick, with the result expressed in "tons" - 2240 pounds/ton. CUP (Copper Unit of Pressure) and the current BAR/PSI are radial measurements of chamber pressure measured by crusher and piezo electric transducer methods respectively. None of the three are convertible to each other.

No, the Birmingham Proof House doesn't use "tones". The old standards have been out of use for 18 years. Britain is now a member of CIP and their proof laws are now standardized on the CIP mandated chamber pressure measured by piezo electric transducer, expressed in BAR. Most of the old British rifle cartridges have been standardized by CIP, and the old bolt thrust standards have been laboriously converted to current chamber pressure methodology. Since bolt thrust varies with regard to case dimensions, the current standards can be surprising to some. For example, the .450 No. 2 NE, at 13 tons, had the lowest "pressure" of the large, full nitro, flanged cartridges, but it's chamber pressure is far from the lowest.

.450 No. 2 NE = 13 tons. Current CIP MAP = 2800 BAR/40,610 PSI
.470 NE = 14 tons. Current CIP MAP = 2700 BAR/39,160 PSI
.500/.465 NE = 14 tons. Current CIP MAP = 2450 BAR/35,534 PSI

BaseCUP (tons) and CUP are both long obsolete.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#81019 - 20/06/07 08:10 PM

Fantastic!!

Can we assume that 40,000 psi is a safe pressure for a quality Double action or can we go higher in medium calibers?

What are the limits for quality medium Doubles with regard to psi?

How about the obsolete "tons" of backthrust?

I believe the 30.06 runs about 52,000 psi.

How about limits of a 300 ultramag at 52,000 psi or 40,000 psi (normal up to 62,000 psi) in a Double shooting a 200 gr bullet?? Any way to predict Double survival other than to just do it/shoot it??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (20/06/07 08:14 PM)

Post Extras:

NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39278
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#81033 - 20/06/07 09:05 PM

Not necessarily a "new" double cartridge would be needed, but something more available to the tune of a .318 WR. .333 Jeffrey or a new .338 NE would be more than useful.

Shooting bullets with a weight of around 225 to 250 grains. With a muzzle velocity of around 2150 to 2400 fps.

Would make a fine medium game light weight double rifle, useful on driven game and if loaded with a 250 gr to 300 gr RNSP's/FMJ's probably capable of taking dangerous game.

Of course they will do nothing a 9.3x74R won't do with a 286 gr bullet, but that is not the question.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras:

fuhrmann
.333 member

Reged: 04/01/05
Posts: 326
Loc: Switzerland

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#81067 - 21/06/07 05:56 AM

Quote:

For those who would hunt elk/moose/grizzly a 338 caliber would be great.The 333 Jeffery Flanged in 338 would be fun or maybe even the 375 H&H Flanged necked down to 338 caliber!!

Does anyone else want to wildcat a Double cartridge for a specific hunying purpose??

What wildcat would you create??

There would be plenty of cartridges to choose from, no need for a new wildcat.

Modern: .30R Baser (already named), 8.5x63R
Classic German cartridges: 8x60RS, 8x65RS, 8x75RS
US wildcat: .338x74R (said to be invented by Keith)

Fuhrmann

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: NitroX]
#81080 - 21/06/07 11:50 AM

Gee Whiz guys,

Think of the possibilities!!

Is a Double the best platform for shooting game at 250+ yards??

Absolutely not,but it would be different and STILL work up close.Drive your buddies with the bolts bonkers!!

Can it be done and regulated with a medium caliber round at faster velocities than are shot currently for a flatter trajectory and increased hit probability? I think so. The difference of a 286 gr 9.3x74R at 2200 vs a 180 gr at 2500 is 7 inches drop at 300. At 2600 fps it would be over 8 inches!! This could be the difference between a hit and a miss on western game.At close range your Double would probably have a faster 2nd shot.

You could do wildcats in 30 cal and 338 cal for wide bullet selection.If not revive an older cartridge at faster velocities.

Scopes for this setup could be dead on at 100yds with the TDS "bars" or similar Leupold scope for holdover at distance.That would not screw up your closer range shooting from 150 yds in.This scope system could even be used on slower velocity Double cartridges already out there.

I think the concept is possible.Maybe one day I'll get to try it for real on some of those young hunters who swear by their magnum cartridges!! It would be great fun!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (21/06/07 12:08 PM)

Post Extras:

Rustyzipper
.275 member

Reged: 20/10/03
Posts: 83
Loc: North of the Zambezi, in Miser...

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#81641 - 02/07/07 10:05 AM

Have you guys thought of a 33 Winchester? The pointed bullets could be used and some better trajectory found with heavier loads. Rusty

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......

Post Extras:

escard
.300 member

Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 158
Loc: austria-europe

to hopp..... [Re: hoppdoc]
#81767 - 03/07/07 09:47 PM

...there already is an existing rimmed version for your needs - .30 R Blaser; no more need for a wildcat......

Post Extras:

9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Rustyzipper]
#81768 - 03/07/07 10:23 PM

Quote:

Have you guys thought of a 33 Winchester? The pointed bullets could be used and some better trajectory found with heavier loads. Rusty

Brilliant idea. Really, can't think of a better round for a light-medium double.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Post Extras:

unspellable
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 9.3x57]
#81781 - 04/07/07 04:14 AM

Why are we always proposing new cartridges? Why not revive some of the old ones that would fill the bill nicely? For example, the 300 H&H Flanged Magnum was designed for doubles and will do anything the 30-06 will do plus a bit more. There was a 275 H&H Flanged Magnum (Both of these are necked down 375 mags) that was intended for long range shooting. I'm always hearing the doubles are no good for long range work, but there were a h**l of a lot of long range cartridges developed for a rifle that wouldn't work at long ranges.

The 30 Purdey is a near duplicate of the 30-40. The 300 H&H will do anything a 30-06 will do. There were several DR cartridges in the 275 caliber range.

Pressure is a non-issue. Back thrust and recoil are what count as far as stress on the action is concerned. The reason smokeless DR cartridges ran rather low pressure to begin with was due to extraction problems with the thin brass that was a legacy from the BP loads. How ever there was never any need for high pressures any way. Bolt action rifles run high pressure out of necessity since the action constrains the cartridge length. Where the bolt action is stronger is in extraction power.

Post Extras:

escard
.300 member

Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 158
Loc: austria-europe

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: unspellable]
#81837 - 04/07/07 04:43 PM

...because the .30 R Blaser is a rimmed one it should be the better option for a double....(its about 10-15 % above the 30-06 Level and has a very good reputation when loaded with the right bullets - of course, not the 165 RWS-KS....instead you should try the 200 Norma Oryx and Vulcan, they both do pretty well in that cartridge...)

Post Extras:

unspellable
.300 member

Reged: 06/03/04
Posts: 187
Loc: Iowa

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: escard]
#82125 - 10/07/07 02:25 AM

How about the 9.3x74R necked down to .30 caliber? That would shove a 180 or 220 grain bullet to good velocity with out much pressure. One should keep in mind that really high velocity wears out barrels faster and DR barrels are not cheap to replace. I would settle for bringing back the 300 H&H Flanged Magnum. If it's just the ballistics, I've seen Drs in 30-06 and 270 Winchester.

Post Extras:

enfieldspares
.224 member

Reged: 12/07/07
Posts: 36
Loc: Great Britain

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: unspellable]
#83185 - 28/07/07 07:36 AM

270 or 7mm Magnum? Been there already....275 H & H or 280 Ross. Never heard of the 7x65R? Also the Jeffrey equivalents. It will be interesting to see now that Paul Roberts has "resurrected" Jeffry if he also resurrects the small and medium bore cartridges based on the .404 case.

I would agree. We don't need more cartridges! Indeed there would be a positive benefit to bringing back some of the "classic" British, and German, rounds. To say nothing of the fine Newton series!

Post Extras:

Bramble
.375 member

Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: enfieldspares]
#83186 - 28/07/07 08:12 AM

Could be fun to build a 350#2 or 360#2

That would be a blast from the past.

Regards

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 9.3x57]
#83201 - 28/07/07 11:05 PM

I have a Holland & Holland DR that is chambered in .35 Winchester.

Post Extras:

Savuti_One_Shot
.300 member

Reged: 24/01/07
Posts: 139
Loc: Florida

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: NitroX]
#83203 - 29/07/07 01:12 AM

Quote:

Not necessarily a "new" double cartridge would be needed, but something more available to the tune of a .318 WR. .333 Jeffrey or a new .338 NE would be more than useful.

Shooting bullets with a weight of around 225 to 250 grains. With a muzzle velocity of around 2150 to 2400 fps.

Would make a fine medium game light weight double rifle, useful on driven game and if loaded with a 250 gr to 300 gr RNSP's/FMJ's probably capable of taking dangerous game.

Of course they will do nothing a 9.3x74R won't do with a 286 gr bullet, but that is not the question.

I'm taking a wild guess here........but I think this could be achieved by necking the 405 case to 338. Ought to make a honey of a double rifle.

SOS

--------------------
"I've this damned cannon." - Robert Wilson

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: Savuti_One_Shot]
#83238 - 29/07/07 06:58 PM

Wish Merkel or Chapuis would make a 300 flanged mag or some LARGER powder capacity 30 cal Double round than the 30 Blaser.

The 333 purdey with 338 bullets or some closer equivilent to the 338WM would be great due to the bullet variety available.

Doubt this will ever happen due to the usual perception of Doubles being short range rifles.I doubt anyone will want to develop such a market for new manufactured rifles--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/07/07 06:59 PM)

Post Extras:

maddenwh
.224 member

Reged: 27/07/07
Posts: 16
Loc: texas

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#83260 - 30/07/07 09:35 AM

I believe these pressure discussions are just nonsequitters from the original discussion. I don't think an american double needs to be invented because I think the 9.3X74R is a fantastic round for big game in the lower 48 and otherwise. My Chapuis double has ejectors, shoots fairly tight groupings at one hundred yards, and has relatively little recoil (i don't even have a pad on mine). I generally shoot 286 grain bullets at around 2450 fps. There is versatility in bullet size, and if one reloads, the cost aint that bad. I wouldn't be afraid to load it with 300 grain bullets and go after grizzly, and I wouldn't have any concers regarding meat damage if shooting deer or antelope. However, the trouble with adjusting the loads on a double is that you have to relearn your sights and shot groupings with new loads.

If one had to invent a new double load, I think the best option would be a 35 cal with ballistics in between the 358 winchester and the 350 remington magnum. A good 200 grain bullet moving at 2600 fps would be a perfect double rifle american load. It takes anyting in the lower forty eight, doesn't have much recoil, and puts a nice big hole in the target. This wouldn't be a long range cal, but who shoots a double past 2 hunsky anyways?

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: maddenwh]
#83338 - 01/08/07 01:09 AM

Quote:

If one had to invent a new double load, I think the best option would be a 35 cal with ballistics in between the 358 winchester and the 350 remington magnum. A good 200 grain bullet moving at 2600 fps would be a perfect double rifle american load. It takes anyting in the lower forty eight, doesn't have much recoil, and puts a nice big hole in the target. This wouldn't be a long range cal, but who shoots a double past 2 hunsky anyways?

You wouldn't be "inventing" anything. The cartridge described above (it's actually a bit better) has been around for 100 years. The .350 No. 2 is a flanged cartridge firing a 225 grain .35 caliber bullet at 2550 fps. Intended for doubles, Rigby and Gibbs chambered rifles for it for many years. The No. 2 case is identical to that of the .400/.350 2 3/4" Nitro Express, it just uses a different load. Cases are easily formed from 9.3X74R. In British double rifles, the .350 No. 2 seems to have been more common than the .400/.350 was. It was quite successful. Factory ammunition is currently loaded by Kynoch.

Another good example of why we don't need any new DR cartridges.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (01/08/07 04:09 AM)

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#83354 - 01/08/07 07:10 AM

I apologize for showing my ignorance--

Could one fire a 350 No.2 in a 400/350 Double? Are both 35 cal?
Are their pressure limits different? What are the specific differences if any?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Post Extras:

bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#83357 - 01/08/07 07:21 AM

Hop-doc,

Go to this link:

http://www.new-kynoch.apt-sites.com/cartridge%20range.htm

and get an education on the great old cartridges, I did.

I think that we have established that we DO NOT need a new cartridge.

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#83358 - 01/08/07 07:32 AM

Quote:

I apologize for showing my ignorance--

Could one fire a 350 No.2 in a 400/350 Double? Are both 35 cal?

Yes, it would chamber and fire. Of course, it almost certainly wouldn't regulate worth a damn. The cases are identical. However, a .400/.350 cartridge probably would not chamber in an original .350 No. 2 rifle because the throat would likely be too short for the long 310 grain RN bullet. They use the same bullet diameter.

Quote:

Are their pressure limits different? What are the specific differences if any?

Yes.

.400/.350 2 3/4" Nitro Express: 43 Cordite/310 grain bullet = 16 tons BaseCUP for 2000 fps from 28" barrels.

.350 No. 2 Nitro Express: 51.5 grains Cordite (but usually loaded with NC)/225 grain bullet = 17.5 tons BaseCUP for 2550 fps from 28" barrels.

Current CIP MAP is 40,610 PSI for the .400/.350 and 47,862 PSI for the .350 No. 2.

The oddity with .350 No. 2 rifles is that, for some strange reason, almost all were marked as having been proved for the .400/.350 load (Cordite 43 - 310 MAX) instead of the No. 2 load.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#83383 - 01/08/07 04:32 PM

Fascinating!

Would such Doubles measure out to a .358 caliber bore or something else?

The 350 No.2 looks like serious fun at 2550 fps.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (01/08/07 04:40 PM)

Post Extras:

maddenwh
.224 member

Reged: 27/07/07
Posts: 16
Loc: texas

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#83387 - 01/08/07 08:01 PM

400nitroexpress- I am well aware that my hypothetical cartridge and the 350 No.2 are ballistically similar and that, if, hypothetically, someone did invent a new double caliber they would not be coming up with anything that had original ballistics. But, just b/c the ballistics were the same, it doesn't mean that a hypothetical gun maker couldn't go ahead and "INVENT" a new caliber with the same ballistics. If you are going to get into a war of language with me, I'll be happy to dance. It's what I do for a living. Now, if I've misinterpreted your intentions as hostile, I apologize and completely agree with your statement that no new cartridge is needed. I also commend you on your knowledge of double cals. I think that between my 9.3X74r chapuis double and my 416 rigby merkel double, there is nothing on this continent or any other that could not be handled effectively or even over zealously. Basically, one big bore, and one medium bore are all one needs to hunt the world. You might even be able to argue that with reloading and with something like a 416, 450/400, or 500/416, one could hunt anyhting with one rifle. Doubles do however, limit distances at which game should responsably be shot from.

Post Extras:

JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#88991 - 15/11/07 04:52 AM

Quote:

There seem to be innumerable Double cartridges and one wonders are there any gaps to be filled??
For short range open sight Double scenarios (150 yds or less)it would seem no gaps exist---

I think there could be a gap in the .400 to .450 calibre class. The .450/.400 is rightly popular and even undergoing a bit of a revival, although some might consider it a bit on the slow side. There is the .500/.416, which is a bit faster but needs a larger framed DR.

Personally, I would love to see a straight walled express cartridge firing a .423 (.404 Jefferey) calibre 450 grain bullet at a genuine 2150 to 2250 fps.

Any thoughts? Would be lovely in a Webley boxlock or Westley droplock....

Post Extras:

Chasseur
.375 member

Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#88997 - 15/11/07 05:57 AM

Quote:

If one where to develop an American all round Double I would think a 30 cal wildcat based on the 7x65R shooting 180 gr bullets(a rimmed 30.06 equivilent)would have appeal.It could feature true ejectors, a qd scope and other features(read expensive!!) high end hunters would desire/appreciate.

I'd second some of the other posters, we already have this cartridge in a modern form: 30R Blaser.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: maddenwh]
#89020 - 15/11/07 12:13 PM

I haven't pulled up this old string since it petered out in August, and just read your post.

Quote:

Originally posted by maddenwh:

If you are going to get into a war of language with me, I'll be happy to dance. It's what I do for a living. Now, if I've misinterpreted your intentions as hostile,

If you somehow found something hostile in my previous post, then I'm sorry that a "war of language" is what you do for a living, as your reading comprehension is below par.

When you start from scratch with a completely new DR cartridge in today's world, you start with zero rifles in the pool, and it's commercial viability must then be supported exclusively by the new rifles being built for it. If a new double rifle cartridge is a big hit and sells really well, we're talking about a couple dozen new guns per year, not a couple thousand. Even if it was a couple thousand, without the direct support of the gunmaker (the willingness to supply factory ammo and components themselves), the cartridge would be a commerical failure - there just isn't enough volume to support the manufacturing costs. If the gunmakers choose instead to use an existing cartridge, even one that hasn't been chambered in new rifles for many years, at least there is an existing pool of rifles already in circulation creating a demand for the ammunition and components - and that means that the gunmaker's customer is more likely to be able to feed his large investment over a much longer term. That's why duplicating the ballistics of a DR cartridge that's been around for many years with a completely new cartridge is such a bad mistake. Doing so only negates the advantage of volume and greatly reduces the likelihood of commercial viability.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#89027 - 15/11/07 01:28 PM

Quote:

I think there could be a gap in the .400 to .450 calibre class. The .450/.400 is rightly popular and even undergoing a bit of a revival, although some might consider it a bit on the slow side. There is the .500/.416, which is a bit faster but needs a larger framed DR.

I don't think there's ever been much of a perception that there was a gap there. It's been there for 110 years, and the only attempt to split the difference hasn't done particularly well. This is primarily because the .450/.400 worked so well and was so successful - more double rifles have been built in .400 than any other over .40 caliber. It wasn't on the slow side. It set the over .40 flanged nitro velocity standard that the others followed. If something larger were desired, a .450 was the next logical step.

No, the .500/.416 doesn't require a larger frame. It hasn't set the world on fire because, as good as it is, it suffers badly from the perception that it kicks as hard as a .450 or .470 and crowds the pressure of the .375 Flanged Magnum (the price of breaking the velocity pattern). For that reason it's usually skipped over in favor of either the .450/.400 or .470. Nice .400s are as easy to sell as .470s these days.

Quote:

Personally, I would love to see a straight walled express cartridge firing a .423 (.404 Jefferey) calibre 450 grain bullet

Same issues as the .500/.416. A rifle for a straight case .423 with a 450 grain bullet at standard velocity will weigh just as much as a .450/.470 and produce just as much recoil, so why bother?

Quote:

at a genuine 2150 to 2250 fps.

...and that will drive the pressure up well over .375 Flanged Magnum levels with a straight case. Seems like everybody is a velocity hound these days. None of the over .40 flanged nitros ever did that in the field, and all were successful and proved more than adequate.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#89077 - 16/11/07 04:44 AM

Quote:

the .450/.400 worked so well and was so successful - more double rifles have been built in .400 than any other over .40 caliber

Quote:

A rifle for a straight case .423 with a 450 grain bullet at standard velocity will weigh just as much as a .450/.470 and produce just as much recoil, so why bother?

Don't get me wrong, I think the .450/.400 is great and remains my no.1 choice. I take your point that a .423 firing 450 grains would generate more recoil and should thus be heavier than a .450/.400. Also, if pressure makes it unfeasible, then enough said. Similarly, I agree that if it wouldn’t sell, then there would be little chance of it being developed commercially.

Quote:

It set the over .40 flanged nitro velocity standard that the others followed. If something larger were desired, a .450 was the next logical step.

Clearly if one wants a .470, one can go out and buy one. However, as .40s seem to be flavour of the month at the moment, and as the majority of safari clients are likely to invest in just one suitable buffalo/elephant rifle (DR or bolt), I was thinking along the lines of whether any of the current flanged .40s could not be improved upon. I am sure that this partly explains the popularity of the .404 and .416 (although this is clearly mostly due to the availability and cost of Mauser bolt rifles). The .450/.400 is often cited as the perfect buffalo DR, however many writers have stated that the 450/.400 is on the light side for elephant, whereas the .416 and .404 seem to be highly regarded as elephant rifles.

Quote:

Seems like everybody is a velocity hound these days. None of the over .40 flanged nitros ever did that in the field, and all were successful and proved more than adequate.

I just feel that, while the .450/.400 is eminently suitable and highly desirable for its original purpose (all-round DR, including buffalo), it might leave some people feeling that they needed more than one DR, for instance if they wanted to hunt elephant. Nothing wrong with that! But a .423 might bridge the gap between the .450/.400 and .470 by approaching the performance of the more modern .404 loads, especially with the heavier bullets now available, and therefore appeal to a lot of potential DR shooters.

Edited by JabaliHunter (16/11/07 05:26 AM)

Post Extras:

Fladude
.224 member

Reged: 21/11/07
Posts: 15
Loc: florida

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
#89398 - 21/11/07 05:13 AM

I am new to double rifles (don't own one yet) but it seems to me that if you want a double rifle that will perform the same as a 30/06, that 7.62x54r is the obvious choice. It's one of the oldest modern rimmed cartridges still produced. Both hunting and military ammuntion has is still manufactured. Alternatively 8x56r might do the trick too. This round is also still manufactured (although in small volume).

Post Extras:

400NitroExpress
.400 member

Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
#89417 - 21/11/07 09:05 AM

Quote:

However, as .40s seem to be flavour of the month at the moment, and as the majority of safari clients are likely to invest in just one suitable buffalo/elephant rifle (DR or bolt), I was thinking along the lines of whether any of the current flanged .40s could not be improved upon.

I see your point. However, as mentioned before, the .500/.416 does that, and is an interesting case study. The .450/.400 3 1/4" NE gave a 400 grain bullet a true 2150 fps in 26" barrels (it was standardized in 26" barrels and the factory ammo actually did it, while the other flanged nitros were standardized in 28" and longer barrels). The .500/.416 standard spec is a 410 grain (and thus the same SD as the 400 grain .400) at 2330 fps in 25.5" barrels. All the rifles I've handled and shot have been 23.6", not 25.5". I chronographed several batches of Krieghoff factory ammo in a new Krieghoff a while back, and average vel was 2250-2260 fps. The .500/.416 gives a 100 fps increase in real rifles, but has to use a larger .500 basic case with 20 grains more capacity to get it, yet still can only do it with higher pressure, despite the factory ammo being loaded with blended (more than one powder) non-canister grade propellants to control burn rate and keep the pressure down. It seems a reasonable assumption that handloaders limited to single canister grade propellants can expect the same results only at the expense of even higher pressure. Again, the result is a DR that is rightly perceived as higher pressure than the others, and offering no advantage in weight or recoil compared to the .450/.470 class rifles. More velocity is expensive, and not needed.

Quote:

The .450/.400 is often cited as the perfect buffalo DR, however many writers have stated that the 450/.400 is on the light side for elephant

Choose your "writers" carefully these days. Genuine, wide experience with elephant belonged to generations gone. Modern "experts", especially of the internet variety, have almost no experience by comparison, especially with a variety of rifles.

Personally, there are just some animals that I've never had any desire to hunt, with lion (used to raise 'em) giraffe, and especially elephant at the top of that list. I've followed that argument that you mentioned though, and it's as old as the hills. John Taylor discussed it in considerable detail 60 years ago. In his "summing up", for the heaviest thick skinned dangerous game (his class c, not as an all rounder) he recommended the .400 and .465. He went on to say that he would be just as happy with a .400, and only mentioned the .465 to recommend it from it's kin in the event someone just wanted something bigger (which he clearly meant to mean someone who needed a boost to his confidence). Taylor made his living hunting elephant, and was far from alone in his views on the matter. He said that, in his experience, you only heard the ".450 minimum" argument from those who bought into it, went that direction and had no problems, and then insisted that the .400 was too light despite having no experience with it at all. Nothing has changed. I've never heard anything but high praise for the .400 from the guys I know who have actually used it on elephant.

Quote:

whereas the .416 and .404 seem to be highly regarded as elephant rifles.

Sure. The .404 (the original standard load, which duplicated the .450/.400 3") was adopted as standard game department issue in Kenya, Tanganyika, Northern Rhodesia, and Southern Rhodesia. It probably saw more use on elephant than any other cartridge of it's time, was used under every condition imaginable, and gave sterling service. As Pierre van der Walt says - "One can actually stop at that, as it ends all arguments." He goes on to say "In original Cordite configuration, the cartridge launched a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps. Unlike humans that grow softer with each generation, African animals seem to grow tougher, because this moderate velocity load proved immensely effective in Africa - whereas modern hunters believe it a squib load."

Quote:

I just feel that, while the .450/.400 is eminently suitable and highly desirable for its original purpose (all-round DR, including buffalo)

A bit of a revisionist description. The .404 was introduced to provide a ballistic duplicate of the .400 in a low cost (magazine) rifle, not the other way round, and both were intended for all heavy game, including elephant.

Quote:

, it might leave some people feeling that they needed more than one DR, for instance if they wanted to hunt elephant.

It certainly wouldn't me, and again, you don't hear that from those who have used it for elephant, either in the old days, or now.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Post Extras:

Shanster
.275 member

Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 73
Loc: Seattle WA

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#89418 - 21/11/07 09:30 AM

I chose the 450-400 it just seems to have soul. Is is not to big or to small it is just right.
Shan

Post Extras:

JabaliHunter
.400 member

Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England

Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
#89549 - 23/11/07 06:46 AM

Quote:

no advantage in weight or recoil compared to the .450/.470 class rifles

Thanks for the wonderful post - great reading. This forum is a great place to thrash out ideas!

I'm with you on Lion and Giraffe, and elephant is just a curiosity for me. I'm still on the look out for "my" .450/.400

buffalo rifle. I like the idea of the .577 2 3/4" but I reckon it is probably too heavy in the recoil department for me. A while ago I passed up a .450 Rigby sidelock because I was after a .461 Gibbs Farquharson at the time and the Rigby needed too much work (as opposed to TLC). Ended up missing out on both in the end and still have nightmares!

Post Extras:

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | >> (show all)

Extra information

2 registered and 68 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator: CptCurl

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 12471

Jump to

NitroExpress.com

Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact