Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: New Double Cartridge needed??

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)
JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #89077 - 16/11/07 04:44 AM

Quote:

the .450/.400 worked so well and was so successful - more double rifles have been built in .400 than any other over .40 caliber



Quote:

A rifle for a straight case .423 with a 450 grain bullet at standard velocity will weigh just as much as a .450/.470 and produce just as much recoil, so why bother?




Don't get me wrong, I think the .450/.400 is great and remains my no.1 choice. I take your point that a .423 firing 450 grains would generate more recoil and should thus be heavier than a .450/.400. Also, if pressure makes it unfeasible, then enough said. Similarly, I agree that if it wouldn’t sell, then there would be little chance of it being developed commercially.

Quote:

It set the over .40 flanged nitro velocity standard that the others followed. If something larger were desired, a .450 was the next logical step.




Clearly if one wants a .470, one can go out and buy one. However, as .40s seem to be flavour of the month at the moment, and as the majority of safari clients are likely to invest in just one suitable buffalo/elephant rifle (DR or bolt), I was thinking along the lines of whether any of the current flanged .40s could not be improved upon. I am sure that this partly explains the popularity of the .404 and .416 (although this is clearly mostly due to the availability and cost of Mauser bolt rifles). The .450/.400 is often cited as the perfect buffalo DR, however many writers have stated that the 450/.400 is on the light side for elephant, whereas the .416 and .404 seem to be highly regarded as elephant rifles.

Quote:

Seems like everybody is a velocity hound these days. None of the over .40 flanged nitros ever did that in the field, and all were successful and proved more than adequate.




I just feel that, while the .450/.400 is eminently suitable and highly desirable for its original purpose (all-round DR, including buffalo), it might leave some people feeling that they needed more than one DR, for instance if they wanted to hunt elephant. Nothing wrong with that! But a .423 might bridge the gap between the .450/.400 and .470 by approaching the performance of the more modern .404 loads, especially with the heavier bullets now available, and therefore appeal to a lot of potential DR shooters.

Edited by JabaliHunter (16/11/07 05:26 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Fladude
.224 member


Reged: 21/11/07
Posts: 15
Loc: florida
Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #89398 - 21/11/07 05:13 AM

I am new to double rifles (don't own one yet) but it seems to me that if you want a double rifle that will perform the same as a 30/06, that 7.62x54r is the obvious choice. It's one of the oldest modern rimmed cartridges still produced. Both hunting and military ammuntion has is still manufactured. Alternatively 8x56r might do the trick too. This round is also still manufactured (although in small volume).

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #89417 - 21/11/07 09:05 AM

Quote:

However, as .40s seem to be flavour of the month at the moment, and as the majority of safari clients are likely to invest in just one suitable buffalo/elephant rifle (DR or bolt), I was thinking along the lines of whether any of the current flanged .40s could not be improved upon.




I see your point. However, as mentioned before, the .500/.416 does that, and is an interesting case study. The .450/.400 3 1/4" NE gave a 400 grain bullet a true 2150 fps in 26" barrels (it was standardized in 26" barrels and the factory ammo actually did it, while the other flanged nitros were standardized in 28" and longer barrels). The .500/.416 standard spec is a 410 grain (and thus the same SD as the 400 grain .400) at 2330 fps in 25.5" barrels. All the rifles I've handled and shot have been 23.6", not 25.5". I chronographed several batches of Krieghoff factory ammo in a new Krieghoff a while back, and average vel was 2250-2260 fps. The .500/.416 gives a 100 fps increase in real rifles, but has to use a larger .500 basic case with 20 grains more capacity to get it, yet still can only do it with higher pressure, despite the factory ammo being loaded with blended (more than one powder) non-canister grade propellants to control burn rate and keep the pressure down. It seems a reasonable assumption that handloaders limited to single canister grade propellants can expect the same results only at the expense of even higher pressure. Again, the result is a DR that is rightly perceived as higher pressure than the others, and offering no advantage in weight or recoil compared to the .450/.470 class rifles. More velocity is expensive, and not needed.

Quote:

The .450/.400 is often cited as the perfect buffalo DR, however many writers have stated that the 450/.400 is on the light side for elephant




Choose your "writers" carefully these days. Genuine, wide experience with elephant belonged to generations gone. Modern "experts", especially of the internet variety, have almost no experience by comparison, especially with a variety of rifles.

Personally, there are just some animals that I've never had any desire to hunt, with lion (used to raise 'em) giraffe, and especially elephant at the top of that list. I've followed that argument that you mentioned though, and it's as old as the hills. John Taylor discussed it in considerable detail 60 years ago. In his "summing up", for the heaviest thick skinned dangerous game (his class c, not as an all rounder) he recommended the .400 and .465. He went on to say that he would be just as happy with a .400, and only mentioned the .465 to recommend it from it's kin in the event someone just wanted something bigger (which he clearly meant to mean someone who needed a boost to his confidence). Taylor made his living hunting elephant, and was far from alone in his views on the matter. He said that, in his experience, you only heard the ".450 minimum" argument from those who bought into it, went that direction and had no problems, and then insisted that the .400 was too light despite having no experience with it at all. Nothing has changed. I've never heard anything but high praise for the .400 from the guys I know who have actually used it on elephant.

Quote:

whereas the .416 and .404 seem to be highly regarded as elephant rifles.




Sure. The .404 (the original standard load, which duplicated the .450/.400 3") was adopted as standard game department issue in Kenya, Tanganyika, Northern Rhodesia, and Southern Rhodesia. It probably saw more use on elephant than any other cartridge of it's time, was used under every condition imaginable, and gave sterling service. As Pierre van der Walt says - "One can actually stop at that, as it ends all arguments." He goes on to say "In original Cordite configuration, the cartridge launched a 400 grain bullet at 2,125 fps. Unlike humans that grow softer with each generation, African animals seem to grow tougher, because this moderate velocity load proved immensely effective in Africa - whereas modern hunters believe it a squib load."

Quote:

I just feel that, while the .450/.400 is eminently suitable and highly desirable for its original purpose (all-round DR, including buffalo)




A bit of a revisionist description. The .404 was introduced to provide a ballistic duplicate of the .400 in a low cost (magazine) rifle, not the other way round, and both were intended for all heavy game, including elephant.

Quote:

, it might leave some people feeling that they needed more than one DR, for instance if they wanted to hunt elephant.




It certainly wouldn't me, and again, you don't hear that from those who have used it for elephant, either in the old days, or now.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Shanster
.275 member


Reged: 02/10/06
Posts: 73
Loc: Seattle WA
Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #89418 - 21/11/07 09:30 AM

I chose the 450-400 it just seems to have soul. Is is not to big or to small it is just right.
Shan


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
JabaliHunter
.400 member


Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: New Double Cartridge needed?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #89549 - 23/11/07 06:46 AM

Quote:

no advantage in weight or recoil compared to the .450/.470 class rifles




Thanks for the wonderful post - great reading. This forum is a great place to thrash out ideas!

I'm with you on Lion and Giraffe, and elephant is just a curiosity for me. I'm still on the look out for "my" .450/.400 buffalo rifle. I like the idea of the .577 2 3/4" but I reckon it is probably too heavy in the recoil department for me. A while ago I passed up a .450 Rigby sidelock because I was after a .461 Gibbs Farquharson at the time and the Rigby needed too much work (as opposed to TLC). Ended up missing out on both in the end and still have nightmares!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | 3 | (show all)



Extra information
1 registered and 59 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 12471

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved