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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles
      #8061 - 02/02/04 08:55 PM

OK, most know the disadvantages and possible dangers of using doubles chambered for rimless cartridges.
Let's ignore for now the fact that many of the rimless cartridges are running pressures considered too high for doubles, and instead concentrate on the other problem, which is the "less than desirable" extraction systems used in rimless case doubles.
So lets deal with those pissy little spring loaded extractor pawls.

Who out there has had actual experience with shooting/hunting with rimless cases in doubles, good or bad?
Did the extractors actually give trouble?
If so please tell us what happened and what make of rifle and what chambering was it.
I'm interested to know how unreliable the extraction truely is with the rimless cases in doubles.

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RLI
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Reged: 01/10/03
Posts: 534
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #8062 - 02/02/04 09:26 PM

I had a BRNO U/O in .375H&H and never had a problem, probably 200+ rounds.

RLI

--------------------
"Life is tough, but it's tougher when you're stupid." — John Wayne

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atkinson6
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Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: RLI]
      #8072 - 03/02/04 03:36 AM

I know of several incidents that happened to clients wherein the extractors jumped the rimless rim and completely tied the rifle up for the remainder of the Safari...

The amount of PSI on a double extractor/ejector is enormous and cannot normally be fixed with the hands...I near tore a thumb off installing extractors or ejectors on one ocassion, wow that smarted..

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: atkinson6]
      #8077 - 03/02/04 04:38 AM

I've never owned nor fired one but I was offered a Chapuis in 375 Holland once. The price was right so I asked the seller why he was getting rid of it and he said the case kept getting stuck in the chamber and he was tired of pushing them out with a cleaning rod. The dinky little spring that popped up the extractor clip had broken and the clip would evidently pop up when fired and block the case from falling out. I showed him that and pushed it up and down with a pencil and the guy was satisfied and kept the rifle. Go figure. I don't know if it was ever fixed.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: mickey]
      #8128 - 04/02/04 04:52 AM

I own a modern Merkel 375H&H. Fired 100+ at least shots AT THE RANGE and 20+ in the field without problem.
As I have heard of the extractor not working correctly IF it gets dirty, I make sure my guns are kept extremely clean.

To be honest, I don't think I would take it after DG, even if it is scoped in QD mounts and shoots very well.

It is the only Rimless double I own, although I would own a 318 WR if I found the right one.

FYI, I keep the velocity down a bit which decreases pressure.

500 Nitro

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vigillinus
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Reged: 11/12/03
Posts: 115
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: 500Nitro]
      #8498 - 08/02/04 06:11 PM

Forty years ago doubles were cheaper proportionately and among others I owned a superbly accurate .318 Westley Richards (2" ten shot groups with Ziess Zeilacht on it) and a so-so (4" ten shot groups with popup peep sight) detachable lock Westley .375 H&H. The .318 never gave extraction or ejection trouble, the .375 did hang up from time to time, could not be trusted, worked ok with Kynoch (even at that time very old ammo) but not with American ammo. And the Westley extractors take a much better grip on the case rims than most of your Euro doubles for rimless cartridges, but they just wouldn't pull the empties out.

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: vigillinus]
      #8508 - 08/02/04 10:29 PM

vigillinus,
I bet they would have been a nice pair of rifles.
Do you have any thoughts on why the .318 extracted and ejected well while the .375 was not as reliable?
I guess both rifles would have had similar quality and fitting of the extractor parts so do you feel that maybe one cartridge case type worked better than the other?
Depth of the rimless extractor groove in the cases could have been slightly different maybe?
It's interesting to hear that two rifles from the same maker could give different results.
This is something that has cropped up a lot over the years, where some doubles seem to work reliabley with rimless cases and others don't.
I see that some Holland Royals used a broad land type extractor on their rimless doubles and this seems to give a greater contact area between extractor and case.
I have never handled a Westley chambered for a rimless cartridge so I have not had the chance to examine how the extractors are made.
Do they use a single spring loaded type pawl similar to many modern doubles?

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: 4seventy]
      #8516 - 09/02/04 02:22 AM

I bet the difference between the 318 and 375 extracting is due to the different pressures between the two cartridges. The 318 operates at less pressure than a 375 does.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: 475Guy]
      #8519 - 09/02/04 03:33 AM

The 318 is smaller in diameter, and the same size pawl can get a better purchase on the case than on the 375 H&H. then add the problem prone belt for this type extractor, and you have a problem waiting to happen.

I believe the people who have not had trouble with these rimless extractors, will, generally, fall into a group which have only used the rifles in camparitively clean suroundings, like on a fireing range! The fact that the pawl has to slide between the walls of the opening in the extractor body,must be fairly tight fit to avoid wobbeling. It,also, must work UP, and DOWN,leaving the top open to the dust of Africa, or powder particles, to enter the slot, and bind it up so it doesn't work. I can see no valid reason to take a chance on makeing the most reliable rifle design every made unreliable, by placeing an unreliable feature on it!

Use one of these rifles in wet weather,where a micro-thin layer of rust on the sides of the pawl, and it's receptical, or in dust so fine it make talc look grainy, and the whole thing will change considerable, IMO!

In short, they are an abortion, that does not belong on a double rifle, IMO!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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ThomasEdwards
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Reged: 04/01/04
Posts: 246
Loc: Newport Beach, CA
Re: Rimless Cartridges In Double Rifles [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #8534 - 09/02/04 06:36 AM

dugaboy1,

...good advice...any further advice on how a diletante double rifle safari-ist may prepare for field mishaps?...e.g., practicing in field conditions, hunting locally, firing in hot weather conditions, etc...

...thanks for your thoughts...

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