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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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gallatin
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Reged: 30/05/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Olympia,Wa. USA
building a DR on a CZ SXS action
      #79838 - 03/06/07 02:51 PM

I'm new to the forum and want to build my first DR, the CZ actions have a cross bolt and seem to my mind a good canidate. A few questions if you please, a shoe lump and chopper lump,what's the diff?
A hidden third Bite? Side clips is this needed? I'd better stop before I make a pest of myself, thank you all for any comments
John


Edited by gallatin (06/12/07 04:15 PM)

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walksfar
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #79881 - 04/06/07 04:23 AM

Gallatin has a wonderful question.
I too, am interested in the possibilities of using a CZ-Ringneck I bought just two days ago in 12ga.
These seem to be great for a project, and they DO have a Greener cross-bolt.
Just thought I would chime in, and second Gallatin's question.
Hope we can get some talk going on these. They seem to be pretty good guns for a project, and they are very tight guns. Just as tight as my Browning BSS's, only with the added cross bolt too!
I was very surprised when I picked this one up the other day. So, maybe we can get some discussion going on these. Seems that if the frame is deemed too soft, that they would still work for nitro-for-black, and be a good gun for north american game.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

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AkMike
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: walksfar]
      #80062 - 07/06/07 03:08 AM

Hallowells has a good dictionary for the terms.
http://www.hallowellco.com/abbrevia.htm#Regulation
Just look around.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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500Nitro
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: walksfar]
      #80065 - 07/06/07 03:57 AM



walksfar

IMHO - and others - Greener Cross bolts are nothing flash.

Most Greener Empires seem to be loose - including mine and
if you look closely and / or mark the bolt with a black pen,
you'll see on a Greener than in alot of cases the Bolt does not actually engage anything - yes, it goes through the hole in the third bte but ? what the f does t do - not much.

Some of the other cross bolt systems which seem to be more tapered seem to work better IMHO.


And finally, on a personal opinion I try and stay away from DR's with Greener type Cross Bolts as they are just not my favourite action.

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80072 - 07/06/07 05:06 AM

The CZ makes a fine DR action in the 10-12 ton range as a MAX. Stay away from the sinlge trigger at all cost. It will double every time.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #80156 - 08/06/07 02:49 PM

to AKMIKE, thanks, Hallowell answered several questions.
to 500 and Bonanza what action would allow for pressures in the 45,000 psi range MAX?
I'm not stuck on the CZ action as have not bought as yet.
I want to shoot .458 cal. to approx 44,000 pmax in a 45-120 case
thanks again,
John

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Marrakai
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 500Nitro]
      #80184 - 08/06/07 10:02 PM

Quote:

Most Greener Empires seem to be loose - including mine... in a lot of cases the Bolt does not actually engage anything..... what the f does it do - not much.


500Nitro:
I can't let that one go by! The Greener 'Empire' is not my favourite shotgun action by any means, but I do have 3 of them. One is a .577 express, as you know.

If your gun is loose, then of course the cross-bolt will not be locking-up tightly. A good many Empire Greeners have worked bloody hard over the decades, and many have needed re-jointing. If they have been tightened by repairing the hinge-pin and hook, without repairing the rib-extension and cross-bolt (which are, admittedly, a little more difficult), then the hinge-pin will not be earning its keep there either.

Two of my Empires are still tight, and the cross-bolts do contribute as a strong and fool-proof third bite. The third is on the verge of shooting loose, and will be tightened correctly (including cross-bolt) when this becomes necessary (if it doesn't become a 12-bore Paradox first!).

Quote:

other cross bolt systems which seem to be more tapered seem to work better IMHO


The Greener cross-bolt is invariably tapered, whether by design or simply as a result of fitting, but not as much as some other designs as you point out. The one I just measured now is .283 through the fence, tapering to .263 through the bite.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Marrakai]
      #80274 - 10/06/07 04:12 AM

SO how does one determine the relative strenght of the various action types? It seems that most are box locks around here ,but how to tell which is the stronger, Bramble on another thread took a zabala 12ga. of "modern design" and a London proof house Proofed it to 3500 Bar or 50,000 psi. How to tell which shotgun action to start with is what I don't know.
John

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Marrakai
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #80289 - 10/06/07 08:16 PM

gallatin:
There will probably be some vocal disagreement with this, but in the absence of a full engineering lab, just go with the most steel. Look for a heavy-weight gun with a long deep action-bar, robust wide lumps, big diameter hinge-pin, thick chamber-walls, and plenty of meat everywhere you look. Stay away from light-weight, slim doubles with narrow or short lumps. You want a fowler or heavy pigeon gun, not a game gun. A third bite is mandatory IMHO, but many successful DRs don't have one I know.

No guarantees of course, but this should put you in the ball-park.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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sbs470
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Marrakai]
      #80295 - 10/06/07 10:43 PM

I had the priviledge to see one in action last weekend at Lodi Wisconsin BGRC match.champered in 500x3" nitro.I didn't have the chance to shoot the rifle but judging the recoil the owner suffered I'm glad I didnt.After the event I had a good look at the rifle and the owner did a fantastic job on putting together a double rifle on a double shotgun.About the only thing I could suggest is that the stock was made from a heavier wood or a recoil device was fitted within the stock.

I got lucky in that event with a score of 84/100 using a 450/400 x3". to edge out the 500 CZ. taking nothing away from the owner who took away a good number of prizes on the day.
The owner built the gun himself and from the other guns he used on the day is a very competent gunsmith.

good shooting
sbs470

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Marrakai
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #80331 - 11/06/07 11:20 AM

gallatin:
Further to my last:
Just found this pic which explains why the Greener 'Empire' has been a popular candidate for a DR conversion here in Australia.

Both these shotguns are 2 3/4 chambers, proved in the UK for 1 1/4 oz loads. Greener 'Empire' on the left, Hellis game-gun on the right. Note the length of the bar, and the relative lump dimensions, particularly the front lump.



You should be looking for a duck-gun or pigeon-gun which approximates the action on the left, rather than the one on the right.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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walksfar
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Marrakai]
      #80356 - 11/06/07 11:27 PM

After looking and very much "going over" my new CZ Ringneck with a fine tooth comb, I've come to some conclusions and am in agreement with most here who have replied. I am extremely confindent that this gun will work for a .500 3" nitro-for-black, but nothing of a type with more pressure, without having to bush the pins, which is too much of a headache. So, I've decided to do something kind of neat to mine, and a lot simpler. I'm lopping the barrels to 24"(appropriately), adding sights(two in rear-like the pedersoli .72's) on a hand-made quarter-rib and front ramp, putting a silvers pad on, sling swivels(appropriately mounted on underrib and stock), and then load up with bore-size round balls with a roll-crimper. Will make a nice close range thumper for anything within 50yds. or so, and will double as a snake gun while in hog territory, which I have found is more than helpful. Plus, the ammo is almost free when made up with mold and empty hulls.
This should be pretty nice for an all-round "do-it-all" double.
In fact, I can't think of a more "useful" gun. Able to fire shot at the occasional bird, and completely penetrate (with hardened balls) just about anything in North America.
I'll post a pic here on this thread when she is finished.
Marrakai: I've been thinking of a vacation-if I can make it down there some time in the future, we should get together for some hogs and buff. By the way-every time I see that Greener of yours on here I get the "build it yourself" blues.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (11/06/07 11:40 PM)

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: walksfar]
      #80462 - 13/06/07 02:10 AM

Marrakai:
Boy, that picture tells the story, does it not! Yesterday I went to Barnes and Noble booksellers to look at double shotgun magazines and scope out your suggestion of "You want a Fowler or heavy pigeon gun, not a game gun." I saw the term game gun used a bit but saw no references to duck or pigeon gun, in fact the emphasis was on how slim and light the gun was. I was hopeing to find brands and models, but it seems that new equals slim and light. Will I need to turn my attention to older used guns to find a suitable action?
John

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #80463 - 13/06/07 03:12 AM

There are two thing going on here. The strength of the barrels and that of the action. If you line the barrels or make new ones they WILL NOT blow. Barrel makers test them to 120k PSI. The CZ action is made from 4130 or 4140 heat treated chrome molybdenum alloy steel. In double rifle speak we use tons of pressure. A 450 NE is close to a 45-120 and produces 17 tons max. Dropping the velocity back to 1850 FPS will reduce you pressure to about 10-12 tons and work fine for just about any thing short of a charging elephant. How do I know this? I have a 45-120 built on a 16 gauge CZ shotgun.

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walksfar
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #80526 - 13/06/07 04:21 PM

Bonanza,
how is your .45-120 built? Any gunsmiths willing to tackle this kind of thing?
I am going to buy another CZ Ringneck to possibly have another go at something like this. One of the reasons I'm making the smooth-rifle out of the first one, is because it is doing so well with round balls and heavy loads. First time out with those, it began putting four shot groups touching alternately from both barrels at 50 yds. This is no joke, and I was quite tickled as you can well imagine. Enough so, that I just decided to do an all out job on it for shooting heavy ball loads, much like the old smoothies from the Empire days.
And this was with just the front brass bead. I can't wait to see what it does with proper sights so I can line things up right. After shooting those big pumpkinballs so well, the thought of rifled barrels was erased from my mind for a moment. After all, I've got heavy DG rifles, but this was something I did not have up to this point-a sort of dual purpose thing which I had thought of before but never put to paper. That, and doubling as a snake gun it would, and hopefully will, be heaven. We hunt wild hogs in some rough swamps, and cottonmouths are a menace to us, often ending up underfoot and too close for comfort. I'm hoping this will make for a dual purpose gun, firing both ball and shot.
At $745.00 on sale, it can't be beat. Of course what I'm doing can be done with a much cheaper gun, but oh well, this one has at least some measure of class about it, which is what I like, but too often, can't afford.
But I will be buying another, and will be going the rifled route. I was just curious as to how your own cz .45-120 was built, as to maybe gain some insight.





--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (13/06/07 04:51 PM)

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: walksfar]
      #80600 - 14/06/07 10:57 AM

My 45-120 was built by lining the shotgun barrels and chopped to 23". The inserts are from pac-nar. The rifle was regulated with a 480 grain woodleigh at 2050 fps. The actual model is Huglu 202B 16 gauge. It is a double trigger with pistol grip - extremely hard to find.

This load is a we bit on the high end for a shoty conversion, but I'll never shoot that load. It was only to make it more valuable.

My brother made it for me.

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walksfar
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #80623 - 14/06/07 03:27 PM

That's good to hear from a fellow member here, Bonanza.
I just got an email from Woody at Lothar walther, saying he would make up a pair of similar liners for the next 12gauge cz I have on order.
These will be in .500 3". However I will only be using nitro-for-black loads.
He spoke in the email of adjustment rings? And o-rings?
Also, a bit of interesting info, is that, they have been making these for Kreighoff for more than 50yrs., and he said they were very popular in Europe. Hope I have not let the cat out of the bag with that info. However, I have yet to figure out how one can reliably regulate for a certain load with these, but then, I've not seen them in person yet. Given that these are "what they are", I was at first a little nervous about the thought, but from everything I have collected in the past three or so days, they seem to be a legitimate route to take. I mean, come on, Kreighoff? Thats a big name there, using liners like this. So, there must be something I've missed, or I must have been asleep that day in class, so to speak.


Edited by walksfar (14/06/07 03:38 PM)

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: walksfar]
      #80661 - 15/06/07 06:59 AM

Mine was regulated the old-fasion way. The rib was rasied and barrels split, then re-soldered. The finish gets buggered, so I'm going to get the barrels re-blacked.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #80718 - 16/06/07 07:29 AM

Bonanza,
Have you posted pictures of it anywhere Iwould like to see them?
If one were to do it over again would you use a 16ga or a 12 bore perhaps?
Does your brother do many of these?
Full of questions yes, but I am hopeing to get started soon
Thanks for your kind replies
John

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #80983 - 20/06/07 08:03 AM

ordered Ellis Brown's book, will hold off with the questions till I've had a chance to read it.
Thanks so much for the great help.
John

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homemadeDR
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #81194 - 24/06/07 03:07 AM

Gallatin, there are others with much more experience and knowledge than I but I am in the process of building a DR from a CZ and am very happy with the action so far.

I posted some information in the DR section of this Forum (before this section was created) if you are interested.

In summary I started with a Bobwhite 12GA and am making a 470NE. Proofing and regulation is complete (although I still need to solder the spacers). I have shot over 100 full loads through it and it is still tight as a drum. I used a gunsmith to fit the barrels and complete the extractor work and he is very impressed with the strength of the action.

If I had it to do over again I would start with the same action without hesitation.

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u30/noyoudoit/P1270054.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u30/noyoudoit/P1270055.jpg
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u30/noyoudoit/P1270058.jpg

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gathumper
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: homemadeDR]
      #81254 - 25/06/07 02:40 AM

Hello,

This is my first post and felt like this thread was a good place to jump in. I've read several threads on here after they came up in searches, but finally came to the website and saw this forum for building DR. This got me very excited b/c on the other forum I visit I asked about building a DR on a shotgun frame and they acted like I was crazy so I just forgot about it.
I read some of the threads on here and saw the mention on Ellis Brown's book which blew out the competetion on my want list. What I was hoping, since I have no gunsmithing skills yet, is if you guys could point me in the right direction on learning material. I was thinking about getting the AGI gunsmithing program, but that is finacially out of the question just like going to a school is. Other that E. Brown's book what do I need to get. I was thinking something like metal working or mill/lathe work.
If I can learn I would love to make a 9.3x74r and/or a 450/400 3" on a CZ action. Are these cartridges with factory ammo a possibility. Even if it is a ten year project, I have always wanted to build my own rifle and kill a trophy moose with it.
Hope I don't make my self a pest around here. Thanks for any help.

--------------------
Isn't that a daisy?

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4seventy
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gathumper]
      #81881 - 05/07/07 09:29 AM

gathumper,
You are very welcome here and don't think for a minute that you would be making a pest of yourself by asking or answering questions about double rifles or anything else for that matter.
That's what the site is all about and the more you post the better!
There are quite a few members here who have built or are building their own doubles and I'd think they would be happy to help out with any info you require.
A scoped 9.3x74 and an open sighted 450-400 NE 3" would make a very nice pair.
Welcome aboard!

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 4seventy]
      #85286 - 08/09/07 01:07 PM

Just finished Ellis Browns book much useful information there.
Found a source for 4130-4140 3x3 bar stock to make monoblocks This supplier wants about $100US per foot. Is that about right?

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Otto
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #85305 - 09/09/07 12:43 AM

There's a gent in Alaska who built a 450 #2 DR on a Huglu 12g SXS. The rifle has been shot a bunch with stout loads and is way loose. Couldn't tell if the bar stretched or the hinge pin bent. Since the CZ is a Huglu, thought this might be appropriate input. Building a DR on a SXS shotgun is so much work, it's kinda dumb to start with a questionable action. I built my 450 NE on a J.P.Sauer 16g BLE and it's tight as can be after 300+ shots.
Otto

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