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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Building Double Rifles & Gunsmithing
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Bramble
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Loc: England
Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Otto]
      #85312 - 09/09/07 07:18 AM

Gathumper

A cheep and excellent description of threading and chambering a barrel can be found in Gun Digest Book of Riflesmithing by Jack Mitchell.

I would respectfully suggest that starting with a block of 4130 or 40 and trying to convert that to a monoblock with a milling machine or monoblock existing lumps without any previous relevent experience, is like trying to fly a F15 using the manual.

IMHO get some 1"dia mild steel bar stock and build a pair of solid barrels with this first.
Drill a hole in the end and but a cheep used chamber reamer off e-bay or such. 45-70? perhaps and cut a couple of chambers.

Get a good set of files a hacksaw and some square and rectangular stock and duplicate something simple in solid ( a desk stapler is good) Look at the finished item critically. Is it an accurate and near perfect faxsimilie? If not, do it again. and again ...until it is. Now build a monoblock in the same material. Is it perfect for shap, size and fit? Good now go to the expensive stuff.
Aint got the patience for it? Then the real thing will be worse so its a non starter.

Practice soldering steel tubes inside other tubes. Take a tube 1" id 4 " long, turn a steel bar 4" long to a -.005 thou fit. Solder it 1/2 way in. let cool and stand tube don on a block. Take a 4lb hammer and try to punch the rod further into the tube. Tube buckle first? Rod doesnt move? Good.

Take your mild steel fake barrels and solder ribs on them after making and shaping them. Beat the hell out of the finished set with a rawhide mallet. All hold together. Good.

This isent me being a smart arse. I had inumerable problems when I built mine and I have been in this game for 28 years on and off. The only thing that saved my bacon on occasions is that I had performed all of the tasks before all be it not on guns.

Ellis Browns book is good, I have a copy here. However in many of his discriptions there is an assumption of experience. Back to the F15 analagy its like saying " After you,ve completed the negative 4g inverted pushover make an immelman turn" when you havent figured out how to turn the engine on.

Good luck.

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Bramble]
      #85342 - 09/09/07 10:38 PM

Superb analogy! I did a checkout (first) flight in an Apache under actual IMC conditions, no autopilot, wonky DG and shotgun pattern flight instruments. Bad idea.

My brother converts CZs to DRs. He started out using Stogers. If it went horribly wrong, he's out $300.00 He has acknowledged the steep steep learning curve!

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gathumper
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #85343 - 09/09/07 11:22 PM

I'm assuming he used the stoeger uplander. Did he just use these as practice guns to see if they functioned properly or did they actually hold up after a good bit of use?

--------------------
Isn't that a daisy?

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gathumper]
      #85345 - 09/09/07 11:42 PM

The stoeger is a tough little gun. Converting them to a DR with moderate loads does not shorten the life any more than shooting shotgun cartridges. That bing said, some crap out after 50 shots other last to 1000. The QA seems to be spotty. The do have the advantage of bushed firing pins.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #90770 - 06/12/07 03:58 PM

I bought this sxs 12 ga. not long ago. It's a Vapen Depoten Falun from Belgium. Is anyone familular with this shotgun. I'd like to use it as a starting point for a DR. I have pics of the flats in case someone knows what they mean, but have not figured out how to load them.
Thanks in advance
John

Edited by gallatin (06/12/07 04:43 PM)

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Otto
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #91418 - 13/12/07 12:06 PM

A talented guy in Sterling, Alaska built a 450 #2 nitro on a 12g CZ/Huglu. Did a dandy job. The action was off face when he showed me the gun. The very large diameter of this case provided more back thrust than the CZ could handle. He might have been somewhat better off with the standard 450 nitro. My 450 nitro on a pre WW1 J.P.Sauer is holding up just fine.

Otto

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AkMike
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Otto]
      #91440 - 13/12/07 03:31 PM

Otto, Do you remember his name? I met him at a gunshow a couple of years ago and have forgotten it and I'd like to stop by to visit. PM me if you remember it.
Thanks

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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400NitroExpress
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Otto]
      #91491 - 14/12/07 06:40 AM

Quote:

A talented guy in Sterling, Alaska built a 450 #2 nitro on a 12g CZ/Huglu. Did a dandy job. The action was off face when he showed me the gun. The very large diameter of this case provided more back thrust than the CZ could handle. He might have been somewhat better off with the standard 450 nitro.

Otto



No, he wouldn't have. True, the No. 2 case is .02" larger in diameter, but it's chamber pressure is also 4000 PSI lower. That's why it produced less measured thrust (BaseCUP - 13 tons vs 17 tons) than the .450 3 1/4" NE. Assuming that the conversion was done correctly, and if the gun is that loose, it was either shot with a steady diet of overloads, or the action used simply wasn't up to a full nitro cartridge, and it's almost certainly the latter.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: bonanza]
      #91499 - 14/12/07 07:13 AM

Quote:

In double rifle speak we use tons of pressure.



No we don't, and I wish people would stop doing it, because it's so obsolete that it's virtually useless.

Quote:

Dropping the velocity back to 1850 FPS will reduce you pressure to about 10-12 tons and work fine for just about any thing short of a charging elephant.



At best, that's a stab in the dark, because there is no way to measure it. The base crusher guns used to measure it never existed outside of England, and even those have been obsolete since Britain converted to measuring chamber pressure upon joining CIP 27 years ago. Piezo transducer measurement of chamber pressure is what is used today and how all of the DR cartridges are standardized now. Pressure tested handloading data in PSI is available for most cartridges now, and the modern systems are a great deal more accurate, which makes the data infinitely more valuable in double rifle applications.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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400NitroExpress
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #91500 - 14/12/07 07:33 AM

Quote:

Bramble on another thread took a zabala 12ga. of "modern design" and a London proof house Proofed it to 3500 Bar or 50,000 psi.



No, they didn't. They didn't have any proof loads available. Re-read the string.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91510 - 14/12/07 09:46 AM

400 NE,
Yes, you are right about the oiled cartridges although who knows that the proof-house folks didn't have some measured data around oiled cathridges? But your point on that subject was well taken by this poster. I would like to start this project this spring to build a 450 #2 or perhaps still a 45-120 31/4 and some seem to think that the CZ or huglu 12ga. has worked well,though I did buy this Vapen Depoten Falun from Belgium sxs and wounder if anyone can tell me about it ? Will keep it as a grouse gun if nothing else. I have pictures of the marks on the flats, but can't get them to post, HELP.
John

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ArnoldB
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #91514 - 14/12/07 10:15 AM

Are you sure it's Belgian? If it is then it probably was made for a Danish or Norwegian company(gunshop) as the word Vapen and Depoten (probably company name) ain't Dutch nor French.
Some that speaks the(Danish, Norwegian) lingo hopefully wil confirm that.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #91540 - 14/12/07 03:45 PM

Quote:

400 NE,
Yes, you are right about the oiled cartridges although who knows that the proof-house folks didn't have some measured data around oiled cathridges?



Of course they did. The original standard "pressures" (these were axial measurements of bolt thrust, not chamber pressure) of British rifle cartridges were standardized in base crusher guns with oiled cartridges. Proof is conducted with dry cartridges. Absent the high pressure proof cartridges, oiling a standard cartridge dramatically increases bolt thrust, but can do nothing to test radial integrity. Only high chamber pressure can do that, and high pressure "purple stripe" proof cartridges have been used from day one. Modern standards for these cartridges are piezo electric transducer measurement of chamber pressure (which is measured radially), and proof loads must produce a mean pressure of 125% of the maximum average operating pressure.

You mentioned that you were looking for a shotgun action for a DR conversion that would adequately handle 45,000 PSI. I would suggest some careful reflection about that. Krieghoff's factory ammunition for their .500/.416, one of the highest pressure flanged full nitros, has an average pressure of 44,962 PSI, and CIP max average is 45,686 PSI. That's a touch high for a purpose-built flanged nitro double rifle. Holland's famous bolster to their back-action sidelock Royal, a dedicated double rifle action to begin with, was inspired by the high pressure of their .375 Flanged Magnum - 47,137 PSI. The idea of building a .500/.416 on a shotgun action makes me shudder. Keep in mind that a proper proof load for a 45,000 PSI operating load will be 56,250 PSI.

If you must use a shotgun action, it would be best to keep it to Nitro for Black/BPE pressures.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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akjeff
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: AkMike]
      #91550 - 14/12/07 04:36 PM

Quote:

Otto, Do you remember his name? I met him at a gunshow a couple of years ago and have forgotten it and I'd like to stop by to visit. PM me if you remember it.
Thanks


Mike.
His name escapes me at the moment, but if you go to the Wassilla High School Gun Show in January, I'm sure he'll have a table. He's an older gentleman, and usually has a table of LC's, Fox's, and Ithaca's. Really nice guy. The way I heard it, is that it loosened up from warm loads. He used 105gr 4831 and 500gr bullets. This load gave a perfect 2150 fps in my re-chambered No.1, and does the same in two different friends British doubles. In this mans gun, however, I heard he was getting in the neighborhood of 2300; which means high pressure! If I come accross his name, I'll PM you.

Jeff

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AkMike
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: akjeff]
      #91552 - 14/12/07 06:08 PM

Thanks Jeff, but Otto came thru with directions to his place even! He had a 20 ga DR built and regulated to a specific factory slug that looked interesting. I had a blast talking to him. Neat old guy.
I'll look for him at that show if I don't see him sooner.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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bonanza
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91562 - 14/12/07 10:09 PM

400NE makes an important point.

They work fine as long as you keep the pressure at 10 tons or less.

This is nitro for black loads. Nothing wrong there.

Remember, the stock is designed for shotgun recoil. Amping it up will eventually crack the stock.

Stay away from from the single trigger. It will double on you.

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akjeff
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: AkMike]
      #91584 - 15/12/07 01:48 AM

Mike,

Great! Glad you got in touch....he's a super nice guy. I bought a nice pre-war Savage 99T from him at the last Eagle River show. I remember the 20ga slug gun, I think. Built on an LC frame???

Jeff

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heavydane
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: akjeff]
      #91588 - 15/12/07 02:29 AM

Hi,

Vapen Depoten is as far as I know a gunshop in Sweden, Falun is a town in Sweden.


Best Regards
Stig

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AkMike
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: heavydane]
      #91612 - 15/12/07 07:14 AM

I think it was an LC Smith. At the time I was thinking about other possibilities of the shotgun and turning it into a rifle.
But 400NE and others have changed my ideas. So I've gotten real DRs meanwhile.
But a well made 12 bore slug gun sounds interesting!:D

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: AkMike]
      #91646 - 15/12/07 03:26 PM

Heavydane,
Thanks for the info if I could get these darn pics to load maybe someone could tell what the proof marks mean

400NE,
Thanks for the reply, after followiung this thread and on another site I read about a gent who used an Oehler Model 43 Personal Ballistic Laboratory, it used strain gage based technology to measure hoop stress and internal ballistics. I have since backed off on such high pressures, I think 450 #2
balistics would be more than enough.

Bonanza,
I talked to a fellow named Jason Simpkins about CZ converted guns sounds like he might be related.



If anyone could help with these pics I would be indebted
John

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AkMike
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #91666 - 15/12/07 07:47 PM

Look thru this site for proof marks,

https://store.bluebookinc.com/Info/PDF/Firearm/Proofmarks.pdf

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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ArnoldB
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: AkMike]
      #91680 - 16/12/07 01:42 AM

Johns's pics.

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: ArnoldB]
      #92423 - 22/12/07 04:47 PM

AK Mike,
thanks for the site, I can see that the proof marks are from Belgium for both Blk and Nitro. So next how does one tell at what pressures were they proofed?

On another note I saw at a gun shop a J.P.Sauer 12 bore, fairly heavy gun and a Sauer 12 bore that did not have the J.P. in the name. Were these diferent manufactures?

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gallatin
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: gallatin]
      #95218 - 26/01/08 09:42 AM

Recieved my copy of The Standard Directory of Proof Marks which answered my question above. I thank you all who have given so freely of your experence. On the subject of barrels, are there makers who are experienced at DR contoures or taper or would any maker be verced in contours? Do you all have the barrel maker thread the breech and short chamber it as well or does this complicate things later during actual fitting?
John

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Judson
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Re: building a DR on a CZ SXS action [Re: Otto]
      #95260 - 27/01/08 09:03 AM


I see the 45-120 mentioned rather often. Why not go with the 450 #2 Nitro Express its pressures are in the 25,000 range and cases though not cheep, (around $5.00 each) last for ever. Some of my cases are going on their 15th loading and are still fine. With them lasting this long the price is not much of a factor One other point about the 450#2 N.E. is that a loaded round is nearly 4.5" long and really high on the cool factor.

--------------------
It is the small calibers that are the biggest bores.

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