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NitroXAdministrator
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.22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester
      #79789 - 02/06/07 08:20 PM

I'm thinking of a long term project with a break open rifle in either .22 Savage Hi-Power or the .225 Winchester.

"Cartridges of the World" lists the .22 Savage Hi-Power as shooting a .228" 70 gr bullet at approximately 3000 fps.

The same reference lists the .225 Winchester as pushing a .224" 70 grain projectile at about the same speed.

What sort of game would you use these cartridges for in Australia or similar game overseas?

An ideal kangaroo round? Small pigs and goats? Hog deer and the smaller deer species?

What do you think?

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Marrakai
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79792 - 02/06/07 09:24 PM

IMHO the Savage has all the class, but it's a 2-edged sword. Cases can be hard to get, even RWS metric head-stamped cases are not always in stock, and if you form them from something else you may end up with neck-splits if you're not ruthless about annealing. The projectiles may be a headache to source in Oz as well: although I believe Hornady include them in their line-up, they may not be routinely imported. Norma projies are probably better if you can get them.

For me, the choice would be easy (I like class! ) but I couldn't recommend the Savage over the Winchester to others.


Quote:

An ideal kangaroo round? Small pigs and goats? Hog deer and the smaller deer species?


HELL YES!

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Marrakai
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Marty
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79796 - 02/06/07 11:19 PM

Everything I'm seeing is saying .220 Swift or 22/250. In so much than apart from "class", I'm not sure your actually achieving anything.

And I'm not sure about this "small pig or goat" thing. In so much as all the .22 cal centerfires are wonderful for "small pigs and goats". Trouble is I have never met a hunter, who can control himself when that 100kg boar or 40 inch goat walks in front of him. And if your in an area that turns up "small pigs and goats", your also in an area that may turn up big pigs and goats.

If you have some sort of .22 cal hotshot centerfire, and you see a big old boar or a big goat, your going to have a crack at it. Particularly if you have a rifle that you are confident in, and know where its shooting.

So then, why not have a 6mm plus or a .30 cal? And do the job properly.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Marty]
      #79811 - 03/06/07 03:55 AM

Quote:

Everything I'm seeing is saying .220 Swift or 22/250. In so much than apart from "class", I'm not sure your actually achieving anything.



The reason is the rifle will be a break open type rifle which could not handle the pressure. Plus I want a rimmed case.

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NE450No2
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79815 - 03/06/07 05:33 AM

NitroX

Since you mentioned 'roos, deer and pigs...
Have you thought about the 6,5x57R?

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NE450No2]
      #79816 - 03/06/07 06:02 AM

No I'm interested in a .22 calibre such as a .22 Hi-Power or a similar low pressure round. If a .22 Hi-Power is too much, even a .22 Hornet. But I would like to load 70 gr projectiles therefore the .22 Hi-Power.

The main question at the moment is not alternative chamberings, but who has used a .22 Hi-Power/.225 Winchester - or similar round which shoots a .22 calibre 70 gr projectile at about 3000 fps plus or minus.

How effective was it on small to small medium sized game?

Have you taken deer with it? How did it go?

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79819 - 03/06/07 07:10 AM

Plenty of people use the 6mm PPC on the animals you are talking about and they are using bullets around the 68 grain mark at 3200 or so.

As to alternatives to the 22 Savage I would not be worried about pressure because you would be relaoding. Factory ammo for 225 would be real hard to come by and will be loaded to full pressure with 55 grainers.

Back in the mid 60s I used a 219 Zipper Improved on a Martini, as did my father and Don Black, a gunsmith that was in Sydney and who made many of them. Shot pigs and roos without problems. These were loaded back because of the small barrel shank on the Martinis. The 219 Zipper Improved is the 225 Winchester but with a different rim diameter. The 225 has a rim diameter reduced to .47 so that it would fit the standar Model 70 bolt face.

As I best I can remember we used the 50 grain Hornady SX bullet.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #79856 - 03/06/07 09:06 PM

Mike

I am looking to use a 70 gr or similar heavy for calibre bullet.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79858 - 03/06/07 10:06 PM

John,

I know you mentioned heavier bullets that is why I said blokes are using 6mm PPCs with 68 grainers and the 219 Zipper worked fine with 50 grainers. In other words I don't see any problem with the 22 Hi Power working.

I tend to agree with Marrakai in that the 22 Savage would be the class way to go. I guess it would depend to some extent on what the rifle was going to be like. If the gun was only going to be a nice little gun to use then the 225 would be the go. There are plenty of bullets up to 80 grains and the bullets like 80 grain Sierra Matchkings will work on animals because I have seen then used from a bench gun in 22/6mm Rem Improved. Sure, these were at just under 3500 at the muzzle but the stuff was shot a long way out.

I suppose the 22 Savage Vs 225 is a bit like the 505 Gibbs Vs 500 A2. If you just wanted to throw together a big banger on CZ then the 500 A2 would be the pick but if it was a top end gun, GMA or H&W action, quarter rib etc then 505 would be the way to go.

I don't know if the 22 Savage is based on the 30/30 case but if it is you could make brass out of them. With the 219 Zipper Improved first lots of 219 Zipper Winchester cases would fireform but with later lots they split and we had to make them from 30/30. Back then (maybe 1963-4) we used vice dies

Perhaps another option if brass is still made would be the 22 Remington Jet. For memory that was very tapered rimmed case that was smaller than the 225 case.

Mike

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JFE
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #79931 - 04/06/07 09:49 PM

John,

I had a 22 Hipower once in a 99 takedown. I bought it because I'm left handed and wanted a small calibre rifle for rabbits and foxes.

In those days I was able to buy (not easily though) 227/228 bullets made by Speer, Hornady and Norma - all were 70-71 grains. I also had a small supply of 227 60 gr HP by the now defunct Super cartridge company.

When it was released the 22 Hipower had some marketing hype about how it would kill out of all proportion to its size, killing tigers and other large game instantly. I took my 99 out on a couple of hunts in NSW and shot a few pigs with it. None were monsters, say up to 120lb. It would make a mess when you hit bone, but no magic. Performance is about what you would expect from a 223 with heavy bullets. I dont know how they killed tigers with it, perhaps were tied to tree first.

The cases I used were made by Norma and designated 5.6X52R. The case is based on the 30/30 and forming dies are available but you would need to be keen to do that much work.

The case design is not great, being heavily tapered and case head separations are common if you push pressures. I had a several of them. I would suggest a design with less taper - easier on the case and the gun.

In some countries in Europe this caliber is used in combo guns for mixed bag hunts where you might come across a Roe deer. Roe are about the size of our Hoggies. However for Hog deer in Victoria you need 243 min. Brno once made a combo in 12GA & 22 Hipower and I have seen the odd one come up for sale from time to time.

Depending on your end use and whether you want to build a rifle, I would suggest the 225 if you can still get cases & dies easily. This would give you a case design with less taper and in 224 you have a huge range of bullets. At one point RWS used to make a 74gr 224 bullet for game designed for the 5.6X57. Plus you have a offerings from Barnes and Nosler that are designed as game bullets.

Joe

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DarylS
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: JFE]
      #79944 - 05/06/07 02:03 AM

I would go with the .225 with a 12" twist barrel. The typical 14" twist might not handle the 70gr. Speer bullet very well. The speer bullet is a bit soft, but if not driven too fast, will work OK on deer if "PLACED" properly.
: .228 bullets are too difficult to obtain in this part of the country - s'pose that might be the determining factor for me.
; I'd be happier with the .225Win. and 53gr. TS Barnes for shooting any bigger game than varmints. f need be, you can make brass from .30/30 brass, but turning the rims, necking trim to length and Fireforming.

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Daryl


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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: DarylS]
      #79948 - 05/06/07 03:27 AM

Daryl

In a break open gun you probably would not need to turn down the rims of 225s made from 30/30 cases.

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308
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #79976 - 05/06/07 01:58 PM

I have used a Savage 99 in .22Hi-Power and a BRNO combo 22HP over 12g using 4x tasco, I have shot pigs with this calibre and using mostly Norma 5.6x52R it drops them pretty good and compared to a similar calibre 223Rem in a CZ I would say the 22HP is better (70g versus 55g) and as for a 225Win in a 70g it would be not much differece you could not tell any difference between them. The 225 is semi rimmed and headspaces on the shoulder also the 225 was designed to approach .220Swift velocities of 4000fps with 45g or 50g bullets ,the 22HP was designed for a 70g load and head spaces on the rim and is a "classic" calibre . I would go with the 22HP as Norma,RWS,Sellier & Bellot make ammo and Hornady make projectiles as for 225 I do not think anyone makes ammo and is a reloading only calibre

308

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Husqvarna
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: 308]
      #79981 - 05/06/07 04:28 PM

Hmmmm I am sorry to butt in here and stir things up but I am a beliver in the 6x70R for low pressure break open rifles.

There are others here as well that does think like so; http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....;o=&fpart=1

The cal is readily avaliable from Norma:
http://www.norma.cc/sida/eng/jakt/sortiment/sortimenthoger.asp?Kaliber=5

The germans love the cal as well.

However if determind to get a .22 Savage Hi-power then get one they are great in there own way, here in Sweden they are somewhat on a decline since a lot of drillings in 5,6x52R gets rebored and done up in 7x57R due to the increasing number of wildboars and our rules for hunting them.

Best regards Chris

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9.3x57
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Husqvarna]
      #80079 - 07/06/07 07:02 AM

.219 Zipper sounds like the way to travel here.

Cheap and plentiful .30-30 cases, cheap and plentiful .224 bullets.

I have never shot a pig with a .22 cal rifle but over on my plantation I've shot hundreds and hundreds of ground squirrels with .223 {50 and 55 grain bullets} 5.45 and I've used the 5.45x39 with 60 grain bullets on stock-chasing dogs and butcher stock and I know I would want a wide variety of bullets available to me, particlularly in the heavy weights for your application. All .224 bullets are not created equal with some quite frangible and others much tougher. Your handloading options would be far greater with .224 than with .228 though factory ammo for the Zipper would of course not be available.

I'm thinking that the Savage HP runs at close to 50k PSI for 3000 fps with the 70 grain bullet, too, and most handloads that function well in the 99 are running a bit under that, closer to 2800-2900 IIRC. Come to think of it, a minimum taper, blown out "Improved" .22 wildcat based on the .30-30 case might be a winner also.

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Becks0079
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: 9.3x57]
      #80114 - 07/06/07 11:55 PM

I can't say for the savage but I have a friend who has a winchester in 225. He has shot pigs and goats with it. Generally headshots though, not the rifle he used in situations where he though he wouldn't get a long look at them. All the goats I have seen him shoot with it were from a rest attached to the mirror on his car.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Becks0079]
      #80193 - 09/06/07 01:09 AM

John,have you given any thought to a 222 rimmed,seems like an obvious choice as brass is still available.
Al

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Bramble
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #80973 - 20/06/07 04:08 AM

I think that the zipper would be the way to go because of the easily availible bullet diamiter.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Bramble]
      #81205 - 24/06/07 06:46 AM

Again note the idea is the rifle will almost only be used with 'heavier' bullets such as a 70 grainer.

I am not sure of the practicalities, but what about a .224 Super or Hi-Power ie the .22 Hi-Power customed designed for a .224 calibre rather than the more limited .228 calibre?

To explain more.

The idea is for a .22 calibre double rifle to be one day (long term project) built on a .410 side by side hammer shotgun. I liked the idea and the project Alan McKenzie posted of a Belgian .410 being made into a side by side double rifle in .22 Hornet.

Unfortunately the photos of that project have dropped off the original thread otherwise I would have copied them here. I may have them saved on a PC somewhere but haven't found them yet.

Other rimmed cartridges of course could be considered and some good suggestions have been made. The main criteria would be a rimmed cartridge low enough pressure to be feasible in a break open .410 shotgun frame, and enough velocity to shoot a 70 gr .22 bullet well. If it was regulated for a 70 gr bullet, other bullets from the excellent .224 range might be feasible or not, depending on the fixed regulation for the heavier bullet.

A little .22 double firing a 70 gr bullet I think would make a neat kangaroo, wallaby, goat, small deer and smaller pig rifle for fun.

Plus other small game if shot accurately enough to hit them. Generally I head shoot hares and rabbits and that might be a bit hard unless the rifle was very accurate.

A long term project but it would be a fun one.


(Thread moved from the "Hunting in Australia" forum.)

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John aka NitroX

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zimhunter
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #81208 - 24/06/07 07:13 AM

I had one of the weird Thompson single shot break actions in 219 Donaldson Wasp and aside from forming and reaming the cases it was a pleasure. Accuracy was without fault and operation was fine except for the weird safety if I remember correctly. Had it not been for the safety I would probably still have it. I have never seen another one on the market and would buy one in a heartbeat if I could find one. Seems like it was called the TCR or some such. The Donaldson is an excellant round and 30-30 cases are easy to find.I had RCBS dies for it and a neck reamer. 22-250 performance out of a rimmed round.

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Mike_McGuire
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: NitroX]
      #81235 - 24/06/07 02:49 PM

I am not sure of the practicalities, but what about a .224 Super or Hi-Power ie the .22 Hi-Power customed designed for a .224 calibre rather than the more limited .228 calibre

Easy enough to do, just a cost and time issue for reamer and dies.

My calculations show that to have a 70 grain 224 at 3000 f/s and very low pressure a case equal to a 30/30 Improved will be required. So a 225 Winchester. I don't think the 22 Hi Power will be big enough. As I remember the 22 Hi Power is similar to the 219 Zipper capacity.

From my perspective if you go for a 224/228 Hi Power then the "classic part" has been lost. Thus if I was doing this I think I would use on of the European rimmed cases and have it in 6mm and use bench rest 68 grainers. These bench rest bullets are quite deadly on the game you mention. Bench rest bullet makers don't thin the nose of the jacket and the jacket thickens at the point during swaging. These bullets tend to go a fair way in and the blow. Talk to anyone who used the 6mm PPC on game.

Since it is to be a double and regualtion is an issue and you want shoot bullets of about 70 grains then to me that spells 6mm all the way. Between the big bullet makers and the custom bench rest makers you have an almost unlimited supply of bullets between about 66 to a 70 grains of so. I think Karl Keuhn in Sydney would do small runs of bullets in different weights. That could help with regultion of a 6mm double.

A 6mm of the same case capacity and using the same amount of powder and at the same pressure will be about 130 f/s faster than a 224. So for 3000 f/s with 70 grains and with low pressure that would make the 22 Hi Power case more suitable.

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9.3x57
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Mike_McGuire]
      #81245 - 24/06/07 11:53 PM

NitroX:

Seeing's you are Down Under and all, why not a wildcat based on the .303 British case? The Germans have what is similar, the 5.6x57 {8x57 Mauser necked down for shooting heavy weight bullets for roedeer}. A .303/.22 would address "CCCC" {Classic Commonwealth Case Criteria }, would provide a case big enough to provide plenty of pressure-reducing volume and the barrel could be rifled with a quick twist for the heaviest .22 bullets.

In addition, the .303 is of course rimmed, meeting another double criteria and a light 20 gauge shotgun would I think be a suitable start for such a gun.

You might not reach the same velocities attainable with the German 5.6x57 due to the use of that cartridge in strong bolt rifles and your desired use of your .303/.22 in a double, but the velocities you could attain should exceed those produced by the .219 Zipper at Zipper pressure or equal them with less pressure.

I change my vote.

First place; .303/.22!

Second place; .219 Zipper!

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Tatume
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81256 - 25/06/07 03:37 AM

>> Everything I'm seeing is saying .220 Swift or 22/250. In so much than apart from "class", I'm
>> not sure you’re actually achieving anything.

> The reason is the rifle will be a break open type rifle which could not handle the pressure. Plus
> I want a rimmed case.

The H&R Handi Rifle is available in 22 Hornet (a rimmed cartridge), 22-250, and 223 Remington. In addition, if you want a little more power, it is available in 243 Winchester, which handles a 70 gr bullet rather nicely. I own several of these rifles, and I'll be the first to admit that they are not particularly "classy." On the other hand, for a base price of 250 USD, you get a strong action, an accurate barrel, and a trigger that can be made pretty good. Mine are very accurate. By removing one forearm screw you have a take-down rifle, and mine returns to zero on reassembly rather nicely. I sewed a roll-up case for my 270 Winchester Handi Rifle using a large beach towel as raw material. It has three pockets, one for the barrel (with forearm attached), one for the scope (in ordinary Weaver rings), and one for the stocked action. For one year I took it to the range once per month, assembled it, and fired one shot at 100 yards. The composite group was less than two inches. In my book, classy is as classy does.

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9.3x57
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: Tatume]
      #81264 - 25/06/07 05:46 AM

Quote:

>> Everything I'm seeing is saying .220 Swift or 22/250. In so much than apart from "class", I'm
>> not sure you’re actually achieving anything.

> The reason is the rifle will be a break open type rifle which could not handle the pressure. Plus
> I want a rimmed case.

The H&R Handi Rifle is available. In my book, classy is as classy does.



Re: Handi Rifles

There are entire aftermarket industries surrounding M1911 pistols, CZ52 and Makarov pistols, the Ruger 10/22, etc. The Handi Rifle seems to me to be a prime candidate for aftermarket parts. The guns really are quite sound and robust, but homely. A nice shapely steel trigger guard and nice walnut stocks & fore ends would benefit these guns a lot, and yes, one of them would make a neat .303/.22!!

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Tatume
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Re: .22 Savage Hi-Power or .225 Winchester [Re: 9.3x57]
      #81270 - 25/06/07 05:59 AM

> The Handi Rifle seems to me to be a prime candidate for aftermarket parts.

One would think, but the only datum I have seems to indicate that Marlin/H&R discourage it. For the life of me, I can't imagine why! Anyway, JD Jones of SSK Industries told me he's tried to buy barrel blanks and they refuse to sell them. He said he could make them, but it would be too expensive to be commercially viable.

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