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Kalunga
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Reged: 16/06/06
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Loc: Germany
Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ?
      #79489 - 27/05/07 11:20 PM

I would like to start a discussion about trophy hunting, especially hunting Cape Buffalo, but also trophy hunting for other species as well. A couple of days ago I received the latest issue of "Atfrican Indaba newsletter" with a very interesting article of "Doctari" Dr.Kevin Robertson in which he criticises the current SCI scoring system. The problem is that rather young bulls, which are important for breeding, will score higher than old mature bulls that have been driven out of the herd. All SCI top buffalo trophys are non-mature herd-bulls, as Dr. Robertson proves with pictures. I think it is not difficult to understand that on the long term the best genes are sorted out and trophy quality will go down.
Another aspect of trophy hunting has to do with the cultural background of the hunter. Several PHs in several countries told me about the typical hunter :
- The typical American hunts for quality of the trophy, he hunts with a measuring tape in his pocket and for him it is not important if he hunts hard or shoots from a car. As long as his trophy qualifies for "the book", he is happy.
- The typical English hunter doesn`t care for the trophy at all, it is the sporting aspect of the hunt that counts for him. If it is hard hunting, he is happy.
- The typical German hunter is looking for an old specimen. As long as it`s old he is happy.
- The typical Spanish hunter is hunting for quantity. He wants to kill as many animals as possible, no matter what kind of trophy he gets.
I know very well that this statement is provoking but that`s the reason I would like to hear what NE members are saying. Of course we are all individuals and hopefully don`t fit in one of the above categories. For example I am German but for me a good hunt is a tough and hard hunt, I look for old specimen but refuse to shoot from a car, I want to work hard for my success.
Now gentlemen, what kind of trophy hunter are You ?


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Marty
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Darwin. NT, Australia
Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #79491 - 28/05/07 12:05 AM

In my opinion the SCI scoring system is intrinsically flawed. And the Douglas system far better. And I fail to see how any true hunter, who is looking for the best quality head of a species could disagree. Shame, that as I understand it, the Douglas system is only in vogue in the South Pacific. And is under pressure from SCI there too.

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shakari
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Marty]
      #79493 - 28/05/07 02:08 AM

From my experience hunters very often prefer to hunt with a PH of their own or similar cultural background..... but be that as it may, I do think there's often a national culture to hunters and sometimes this can be subdivided by area/province/state.

I'm a Brit and as far as hunting (esp Buff hunting) for myself is concerned, I just like to hunt Buff, anytime, anywhere...... but note I use the word hunt, not particularly shoot. Some of my most memorable moments have been when I was creeping into a stationary herd and sorting through them to look for a shootable Bull. - Even if there's nothing to shoot and I've crept out again without taking a shot, it's great. I've also done it with Elephant and that's also great........ Sitting in a blind surrounded by Lions is also a lot of fun for me and with the right client it's simply fabulous........ If I can't get into a herd of Buffalo, I'm almost as happy hunting a small group of dagga boys. As far as trophies are concerned, it's always nice to look for a good spread and good bosses but if I have to choose between the two, I'd opt for good bosses. I also have a liking for an old bull with snapped off horns like an American football helmet. I've hunted an awful lot of Buffalo, both with clients and just for myself. The only one I have on my wall isn't particularly big, but he has good bosses and he gave me hell in the hunt and I love that trophy dearly.

I've found most Germans have a particular liking for abnormal horns such as bent or broken..... that's very much a cultural thing for them as is the horn blowing etc that happens at days end....... I don't know the technicalities of this, but I do like it very much...... so many people don't respect the animals they've taken, it's a pleasure to see the respect paid.

There's not a race of people I don't enjoy hunting with and as far as the Americans are concerned, I particularly enjoy hunting with Texans, although it's hard to put a finger on exactly why that is.

So what kind of a hunter am I? - I guess I'm my own kind but I obviously have to try to keep the client happy as well..... Generally, I'd say I'm the kind that likes to get as close as possible to the game, especially in the really thick stuff. The closest I've ever had a client take a Buff was last year. - He was only 19 years old, a natural hunter and brilliant shot and he took his 41 inch Buff at just 4 yards.......

I also have favourite clients. (don't know if I should admit to that!) 1 Welsh, 1 English, 1 (ex pat) South African and maybe 3 or 4 Americans....... all of them have a few things in common. They shoot very straight. don't complain when the hunting gets tough, have a sense of humour (even the Welshman! ) and I consider them all good friends as well as clients. (Actually, I don't really consider them clients at all - just good friends) With those guys, I'd hunt anytime and anywhere and if necessary, for nothing.....

--------------------
Steve "Shakari" Robinson
Kuduland Safaris (Africa) Ltd
info@kuduland.com
www.kuduland.com



Edited by shakari (28/05/07 04:33 AM)


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xausa
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Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #79496 - 28/05/07 04:59 AM

I suppose you could say that I'm an odd kind of hunter, because for me hunting is simply the ultimate test of marksmanship skill, a demand to put it all on the line, right here and now, no procrastination, no time to contemplate, no excuses and no alibis. In addition, it's the ultimate test of ammunition and equipment, and if you, like me, are shooting a rifle built around a cartridge you designed yourself, tested, perfected and then loaded yourself, then it's a double test, like shooting in the Olympic Games using your own hand loaded ammunition.

You're shooting at an unknown range at a target whose size you can only estimate, at an area of the target you can identify only by much study or by experience, and you have to shoot it now, before it spooks or before something else spooks it. The final factor is that, if it's dangerous game, and you don't perform adequately, you may get gored, trampled or et.

The trophy is a nice thing to hang on the wall to remind you of the moment, but the real thing is the moment itself, when it all comes together. The endless practice, the careful calculation, the painstaking designing, the search for the perfect combination of caliber, action, barrel and stock all fused in the moment when you're close enough and have a good enough view and your tracker whispers in your ear, "piga, bwana". Or you turn to find a couple of tons of angry animal rushing toward you, and your mind goes into auto-pilot and all the practice pays off.

Like the time we were motoring down a trail in the Selous Reserve and suddenly, off on the left, there is a kudu bull with his harem standing in an open field. We stop, I bail out, the Krieghoff .375 is thrust into my hand. By the time it's loaded all the cows have disappeared and the bull is looking back over his shoulder for an instant before following them into the thick brush. I have once chance, shooting off hand unsupported at 150 yards at a target which will evaporate like a puff of smoke, if I don't shoot right away. The rifle comes up, the crosshairs settle, the shot goes off, the kudu makes a giant spring into the brush. I turn to the PH, who is still in the car looking through binoculars. He says, "You got him." And sure enough, there he is, stone dead, one lunge away from where he was standing when the trigger broke.

That is the shot I will remember forever, along with the elephant I brained with a shot behind the ear and the rhino who ambushed us on the slopes of Mount Kenya. And along with the little white tail buck I shot last year, when he was part of a herd of deer which burst out onto the logging road like a covey rise of quail, and I caught him in mid stride with the rifle bullet from my pre-war Sauer & Sohn drilling. No time to think, just react.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: xausa]
      #79501 - 28/05/07 07:45 AM

I have never hunted buff but plan to in 2008 in the Chewore area of Zim unless the country self destructs.

I will take what the PH decides but I have always been into large bodied animals and not totally into horn size.I would want a hard joined boss with classical heavy curved worn horns not just wide sharp pointed ones. That means toughness endurance,and wits, a characteristic of dangerous Cape Buffs.

Width? Far overrated-Who can tell horn width across a room hanging on a far wall?? Not me--Body size impresses and cannot be disputed.

Are the genetics for horns being affected by taking all the herd bulls instead of the dagga boys???? Seems like the horns are getting smaller and the bosses not as mature but that is just my impression.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (28/05/07 07:47 AM)


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500grains
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79502 - 28/05/07 11:56 AM

I like scrum caps.



This one measured a full 20 inches.


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Ripp
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #79503 - 28/05/07 12:03 PM

I have hunted buffalo and have taken three to date. I plan to hunt them again next year while I hunt lion. I would agree there are some American hunters that hunt with a tape. I myself do look for trophy quality of the animal before I pull the trigger provided there is time. Sometimes there is not. However that is not why I hunt. As mentioned by others, I long for the memories of the hunt itself. The very first buffalo I took involved stalking, tracking and running with the herds until we caught up to them for a shot. This took well over 4 hours one day after we got into the herd. I will NEVER forget that day for as long as I live. Two days later I shot a very large bossed 17 3/4" --41" wide buffalo---much larger than the first one, however the hunt was much easier, total time elapsed from when we found the first spore to the shot was probably 1 1/2 hours--I was very happy with the second buffalo but it is still the first one that I always think about. Being with 30 to 40 yards from the herd and not being able to get off a shot. Feeling the wind on the back of your neck and knowing its over..running with the herd again until they stop and maybe this time you can spot the bull for a shot.. it is awesome to say the least. I WILL NOT SHOOT AN ANIMAL FROM THE TRUCK. If I want to just shoot I will go to the gun range. Hunting is so much more than that.

I have taken will over 30 big game animals with my bow. None of them are SCI record book animals and yet those were some of the most enjoyable hunts of my life. Hiking in the mountains while feeling the cool fall air on your face, listening for the elk to bugle off in the distance, getting within 30 yards of a herd as they walk by you, those are the reasons I like to hunt.

Having said that, I disagree with HOPDOC as to not being able to tell a 37 from a 40 or better.. most that have studdied their quarry and hunted the animal can and will tell the difference. I believe once you come back from your first trip you will also. I would suggest reading Dr. Robertson's book, "The Perfect Shot" before you go. It is an excellent reference book from the standpoint of shot placement at various positions as well as trophy judgement in the field. One hands width past the outside of the ears equals 40".

Ripp


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hoppdoc
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Ripp]
      #79521 - 28/05/07 08:33 PM

Question-

Referring to the past lion/buff/croc clip-
The Battle at Kruger-
how lsrge is that lead Buff??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Marty
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: 500grains]
      #79528 - 29/05/07 12:43 AM

Quote:

I like scrum caps.



This one measured a full 20 inches.




OK. Did you shoot it?

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500grains
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Marty]
      #79531 - 29/05/07 12:47 AM

Yes.

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Plains99
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Marty]
      #79584 - 30/05/07 06:52 AM

As a representative poor boy, I don't much care about making any record books. It is the experience that I'm after. I'd like a good representative animal. If I was able to hunt more often, I might be more interested in making the book... but just making the effort is a first goal. I took some South African plains game that might (or at least I've been told) make the SCI muzzleloader record book. I never contacted them because it isn't important. I got to go. I got my feet wet and I'm going back for a buff. I'm not about to louse it up by worrying about making a book that I've never read nor care to read. The life experience is far more valuable than my name in a book.

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Kalunga
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Plains99]
      #79590 - 30/05/07 08:27 AM

Dear Gentlemen hunters ! I am happy that obviously most of us are a bunch of real hunters. It makes me feel good that there are more men feeling the same as I do. Thanks alot for Your comments and keep on hunting the real thing !

Kalunga

Wicked good hunting !!!


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xausa
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #79656 - 31/05/07 11:32 AM

I forgot to mention that the SCI (Safari Club International?) scoring system is a new concept for me. I date back to the Rowland Ward Records of Big Game era (four entries) and am obviously behind the times in trophy evaluation. Would someone care to enlighten me as to the similarity or differences between the two systems?

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: xausa]
      #79666 - 31/05/07 03:04 PM

I explained to both of the PH,s I hunted with that I wanted to shoot a buffalo that looked like a buff. I prefered a big old bossed bull to a soft boss with wide horns.

That came back to haunt me on my second Safari when Donza and I crwawled to within 25 yards of two bulls laying down. I had two bulls on quota. They were both at least 43 inches.

I was all keen to get a little bit closer, stand up and bang one with a right, one with a left, do a quick reload and sort it all out....


But he said "No they are too soft" so we crawled away.

I later in the Safari shot a real monster at 42" with a monster boss. A very nice buff.

I go more on how it looks to me than how it fits into any scoring system.

I fell the same way about other horned game as well.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79670 - 31/05/07 04:13 PM

For myself I like to hunt and the trophy is of lower priority.

I like to take at least representative mature trophies and in the case of cape buffalo that means a hard boss. I think that if a taxidermist needs to add putty (or whatever) to a soft bossed bull to make it look good, that is no different to adding a few inches to a deer antler or some other falsehood.

My one and only cape buffalo I have never measured. It has good hard bosses and is probably only about 34 inches and was probablt eleven to thirteen years old. It was smaller than I wished but I had two on quota, and seeing the problems on that safari with warvet invasions etc I was happy to take him. The second animal never happened.

My trip last year I looked for a cape buffalo again with a minimum of hard bosses, but the main target was elephant. We saw a good number of long soft bossed bulls the PH said he would probably usually get the client to shoot. Looked nice and tempting in the scope but not trophies in my opinion.

I do not have a tape measure to measure horns or antlers. The only lengths I know was if the PH or taxidermist did them unrequested.

I don't mind a worn old warrior but 500grains "scrumcaps" are way too extreme to me, and I would only shoot one as a free cull.

But everyone to their own as long as it is done sportingly. No back of bakkie "shooting" for example.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NE450No2
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: NitroX]
      #79674 - 31/05/07 04:58 PM

The "quality" of the hunt is the important thing to me as well. I have shot some cow cape buff for lion bait, and they were just as exciting and as much fun as the bulls I have shot.

It is all about the fun... That is why I hunt, for the, trip, the adventure, the stalk,
the shot[s].

I consider all the animals I shoot from a rabbit to a bull elephant to be trophies.

A few "inches" or "pounds", does not make or break a "kill" for me.

Also, some of my most fun "hunts" did not result in a "kill".


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79677 - 31/05/07 06:19 PM

NE450No2

Yes, cows or females of most DG species when legal and if "herd" management allows are fun to hunt and often cheaper. Still a 'trophy' in my opinion too.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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AdamTayler
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #79737 - 02/06/07 01:31 AM

I have not and do not have plans for hunting Cape Buffalo but hunting for me now is about the experience. I look for a mature animal or something non-typical. I have passed on legal animals and still come home happy. I do like a yearling bull moose for the freezer though.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.


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9.3x57
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: AdamTayler]
      #80044 - 06/06/07 11:34 PM

Kalunga:

Your stereotypes are provoking and they should be. They should provoke each and every one of us to look hard inside and judge ourselves for our motives and our actions.

I read this post and wasn't even going to get involved since I haven't shot a buffalo. I have shot various game in several US states and small game and plains game in central and southern Africa, two heads which scored high but I never bothered to submit. As for buffalo, my closest to hunting them was the temptation to dust their butts with SSSG buckshot out of frustration for their spooking the troop of monkeys we were hounding in the Congo years ago.

Your question brings up a specific problem that I believe may contribute to major problems in game management in the future. The future is now...

Now, here's my rant. Yes, I am using some hyperbole, but I hope you guys won't forgive me too much as I really do think we have a host of problems and I intend to pick on one.

Kalunga, you started it so don't blame me! Entschuldigen Sie mir!!

Speaking about American hunters in specific {maybe it applies to others, or will apply some day}, I am just about thoroughly and completely disgusted...

I believe we are reaching "critical mass" {pun intended} and a substantial part {but not the only part} of my problem with The Average American Hunter revolves around "his" weight {Read: obesity}. Yes, I have trouble with his typcal lousy shooting and hunt laziness but to a degree I believe they are impacted by his inability to carry his own bulk yonder and near. Please understand, I live in the mountains of Idaho and know very tough terrain {which exposes these faults dramatically} and I know the temptation to lean hard on equipment instead of the sinew God gave us. I spend my entire year trying to keep Old Man Age and past injuries and ailments at bay so I can enjoy the grind of getting close to elk, deer and bear. But what I see in the woods and what I read about as a medical crisis in our country I believe is contributing to changing attitudes about the quarry and the concept of the trophy.

I believe it IS true that many Americans don't care about HOW they get their trophy because they can't care! They are all-too-often too fat and out of shape to take on the challenge of a legitimate hunt. A Series III Land Rover or {here} the Arctic Cat 500cc ATV suits them just fine, because the possibility of their actually accomplishing a legitimate foot hunt is so remote and it represents a legitimate threat to their well-being. I submit that heart attacks are a far greater threat than angry buff to many an American hunter.

As I said, I am disgusted... I've seen them huffing and puffing just unloading their ATV off the pickup so they can cart themselves around looking for a big horned critter to beer'n'brag about.

Look at the dilution of real, wild trophies with darn-near pen-raised deer in Texas and elsewhere.
And in southern Africa, game ranching ethics have reached national political status. The sport as we knew it is under seige from within and the BFG's inability to shake the vehicle isn't pointing to a bright future for trophy hunting.

The pressure to provide a set of horns for some BFG is so high that many ranch managers and guides the world over face high temptation to make it all too easy.

Further, I'll put it this way. To me, I do not care one whit for another guy's trophy unless I know him deeply and personally. I don't care what species is being talked about and what yarn is being spun. Period. Good grief, I chuckle as I realize that I have far more involvement in fair-chase hunting here on the ranch shooting mutton sheep with my shoulder-stocked 9mm Browning High Power pistol than exists in many big game hunts all over the world and my knowledge and growing cynicism about the Hunt bars my belief in the Story unless the Man proves it.

Trophy Hunting??

I am really beginning to believe a system should exist to grade the conditions of the hunt without regard for the size of the horns. It may border on heresy, but I mean I wonder if we'd be better off if we forgot about horn size entirely. Maybe not quite yet, but soon. Or maybe a mathematical listing of horn size and locality {without the hunter's name attached} would suffice, with the New Culture I hope for emphasizing hunt type over horn size.

¿Quien sabe? But something new, please!

After this rant it may be hard for the reader to believe, but I personally have no ethical problem with any culture's hunting METHODS as long as the game are not erradicated. Hochsitzen, bait, hound hunting, calling, all are fine by me. But the trophy size means nothing to me anymore. So often it only means that a big set of horns swung close enough to the Machine that a blind-drunk, fat guy could shift his girth behind a shootin' iron long enough to clamp his eyes shut and yank the trigger.

All that to say this: My opinion is that if we really KNEW the hunt conditions we could much better judge the trophy.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Kalunga
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #80073 - 07/06/07 05:08 AM

9ThreeXFifty7, I totally agree with You although I have to remind You that the "typical" statements were not my opinion but from PHs or hunting guides from Zimbabwe, RSA and the Czech Republic.
I have hunted a couple of times in the US but don`t feel that I have the right to judge the American hunters. But being German I can tell You about the typical German hunter : he has a big four wheel drive, a big wallet and a big belly ! And the typical hunt here means You drive with Your 4WD as close as possible to Your high-seat, climb it and just wait for any shootable animal. Then You shoot it.
For me that`s more shooting than hunting and therefore I love hunting in Africa, as long as plenty of walking is involved. And I had many wounderful hunts without shooting anything ! But since the Germans are number one in the obesity charts of Europe, there are few hunters here like me. In fact I don`t know a single one that is happy walking 30 miles a day in the heat or cold.
And so many hunters here are jealous if You get a nice trophy so I prefer to hunt on my own.
Thank You for Your honesty !

Kalunga


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jorge
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Kalunga]
      #80075 - 07/06/07 05:45 AM

I just like to "roll the dice", enjoy the hunt and trust my PH. So far, every time he's said "that's a good one" (on all game not just my buffalo) it's worked out. I took my buff after 5 days of hard hunting. He was old, but pretty average 38" but I think he's great! jorge

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9.3x57
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: jorge]
      #80078 - 07/06/07 06:16 AM

By the way, I do not know 500GRAINS but I gotta tell you that guy is a hunter and I have a lot of respect for the little I know of him, which is one color picture!

I fell in love with that bowl-horned buff the second my slow-as-molasses computer downloaded the picture.

It used to be that a trophy was a trophy partly because it was unique, and Brother, that buff is unique! I'd be proud to hang it on my wall even if it was the only one I ever shot!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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hoppdoc
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: 9.3x57]
      #80082 - 07/06/07 08:20 AM

Sad, but I must agree--

American hunters are TOO FAT!!!

Sadly hunting whitetail from a treestand is a sedentary activity.

Hunting elk can be sedentary if you use a stationary position to ambush known trails or ATV it to cover large areas.

African hunting seems NOT for fatties!! So Sorry for the PH's who have to deal with such limitations! I am presently dealing with my own body and making it better and yes, lighter.Hard to hunt and aim when you can't breathe or hold your rifle still on target!!

Gotta try to walk the walk if you are going to fully enjoy the experience!!


--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Ripp
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Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #80153 - 08/06/07 12:26 PM

Quote:

Sad, but I must agree--

American hunters are TOO FAT!!!

As one hunter who works out 4 to 5 days a week, speak for yourself. Not sure what the hunters do where you are but my group of guys who hunt elk usually hike 2 to 3 hours before daylight to get to their hunting areas. As to Africa, you can do just as much riding around, sitting or whatever as you would on any other hunt any where else in the world... point is, as the initial question was asked, "what kind of hunter are you" --Do you want to sit on your dead rear end and take it easy or make a hunt out of it and get out and work like it should be done---no matter if this is in Idaho, Texas or Africa...this is what makes the hunt... not the size of the horns...I am just saying...

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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Buffalos : what kind of trophy hunter are You ? [Re: Ripp]
      #80181 - 08/06/07 09:18 PM

I will venture the opinion that the majority of most American hunters over 50 are signifigantly overweight.

It is a lifestyle issue.

Too many cell phones, computers, TV's,and sedentary work.

Hunting to me is most fun when you HUNT, not sit.

Most of the real work with big game(not deer)is done AFTER the shot, getting the animal gutted, quartered, and carried out of the remote site you harvested it in!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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