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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
577 calibers
      #79015 - 20/05/07 09:26 AM

Help please;

577x2 3/4" versus 577x3" versus 577x3 1/4".......

Any differences in ballistics???

Many thanks

Ben

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 calibers [Re: empirevr]
      #79016 - 20/05/07 09:46 AM




Have a look at


Cartridges of the World
Gaeme Wrights book


and do a search of the net as their are web sites listing all of them.


Also, are you talking Nitro or BP ?

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mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: 577 calibers [Re: empirevr]
      #79028 - 20/05/07 12:25 PM

Quote:

Help please;

577x2 3/4" versus 577x3" versus 577x3 1/4".......

Any differences in ballistics???

Many thanks

Ben



Like 500 said, are we speaking of BP or cordite? The 3 1/4 load is generally a BP. The 3" is generally a Nitro load and the 2 3/4 can be either.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
.450 member


Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: 577 calibers [Re: mickey]
      #79032 - 20/05/07 12:40 PM




I know of 2 x 3 1/4" Nitro 577's here
although you are correct IMHO.

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walksfar
.275 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: 577 calibers [Re: 500Nitro]
      #79040 - 20/05/07 02:53 PM

The 3 1/4" CAN be a full nitro, only with the same power working at lower pressure-much like the .500 3 1/4" is to the .500 3", but these are, I think, rare, and the 3 1/4" version as mentioned above was mostly seen in BP guise at an earlier basis.
The 3" can be either BP or full nitro.
Same for the 2 3/4", although the 2 3/4" full nitro is less powerful than either the 3" or 3 1/4".
And, then we have the un-ending list it seems, of "tropical loads", supplied by different makers in the hey-day of these cartridges, which makes things even more confusing.
However, the most well known, legendary, and common of the whole lot, was the 3" full nitro.
Also, what I will not go into at this point, because it would become confusing, is the different bullet weights in all three case lengths. The 650 to 750 in all three, and so-on, so-on.
But, rest assured, when the .577 is mentioned anywhere in a crowded bar-room, that it is the 3" case nitro with the 750grn. bullet and 100grs. of cordite that is being spoken of.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2392
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 calibers [Re: walksfar]
      #79041 - 20/05/07 03:14 PM

Quote:

But, rest assured, when the .577 is mentioned anywhere in a crowded bar-room, that it is the 3" case nitro with the 750grn. bullet and 100grs. of cordite that is being spoken of.



Not true at all...I know a group that when they say .577 they mean a cartridge case to load a muzzle loader from the back. Although true enough they are more likely to say Snider than .577. But 577 3 inch would be far from their minds.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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walksfar
.275 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: 577 calibers [Re: DoubleD]
      #79046 - 20/05/07 04:30 PM

Yes, that's true. When you said that I was thrown for a loop because the Snider and the .577 Enfields and the like were the farthest thing from my mind when I typed that. But, yes, you are correct. I should have noted that said bar was full of old ivory hunters, and not old soldiers.hehe
Sorry for any confusion that may have been caused.
The Snider, IS, in my opinion a great round itself, and although I don't own one, I'd love to have one. I hear they are fun to shoot. I've always liked the thought of the Snider .577 as a general fun gun.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

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DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2392
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: 577 calibers [Re: walksfar]
      #79052 - 20/05/07 09:22 PM

Aw it was a cheap shot on my part, but I have absolutly no will power and couldn't resist...

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 577 calibers [Re: DoubleD]
      #79073 - 21/05/07 04:13 AM

Hi

Thanks gents

Im talking bp but nitro info is handy too..........isnt it the same thing anyway? i.e. differences are the same just in different levels???

Thanks

Ben

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walksfar
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Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: 577 calibers [Re: empirevr]
      #79081 - 21/05/07 05:54 AM

Quote:

Hi

Thanks gents

Im talking bp but nitro info is handy too..........isnt it the same thing anyway? i.e. differences are the same just in different levels???

Thanks

Ben



I hope I'm reading your question right. There is a huge difference in the BP and the Nitro.
Enough so, that it's extremely dangerous if you have a BP cartridge gun and fire a nitro load in it. We're talking visits to the hospital here.
So, in other words, make sure, if you have one, what it is originally chambered for.
The .577 nitro versions are on average TWICE as powerful. If you have a BP .577 that with full loads produces 3500ft.pds., and mistakenly load it with a .577nitro that produces 7010ft.pds., then it will not only ruin a fine gun, but may also harm yourself or a bystander in the process.
Loads are usually stamped on the gun, but if not, take it to an expert and find out.
Again, you may already know this, and I hope so. But, I was hoping I was reading your question in the format you meant it to be in. With due respect to you, I simply had to add this imformation for safety's sake. After all, a bad thing only has to happen once.
As for the cartridges, like the brass itself, they are mostly the same thing, except for the coiled-brass versions, which if you've ever held one, is the weird-est thing you'll ever see in a cartridge. The bullets differ. As in lead bullets for the BP versions. Then the NFB versions, which could have jacketed bullets.
The NFB-nitro-for-black versions are smokeless, but work at the same pressure as the BP versions.
I know, it's confusing, but don't fear, because if you have a gun in any of these chamberings, it should not be too hard to find out what it is meant to actually shoot. In a double, it should have the regulation load stamped on it somewhere. Remember some letters for the stampings: as in "C" for cordite, etc. The blackpowder versions will usually just list grain weight, because smokeless was not yet invented and therefore there was no need to distinguish. Blackpowder bullet weights were lighter. That is a key. If you have a bullet weight stamped of 750, then it is possibly cordite, and also, the overall cofiguration of the gun itself,-not definative, but will give you hints. Still, after all of this, go ahead and have it inspected by an expert in the field.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (21/05/07 06:16 AM)

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 577 calibers [Re: walksfar]
      #79084 - 21/05/07 07:01 AM

walksfar...

Yes do not worry i am fully aware of that difference!

I meant that the difference between those bpe round case sizes must have some kind of similarity with the difference between the nitro version in differing case lengths, i.e. larger=more powerful.

However some say they are the same power/speed regardless of case length.......

Better question, of the bpe 577's which is the easiest to get cases for,load and such?

Many thanks

Ben

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walksfar
.275 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: 577 calibers [Re: empirevr]
      #79099 - 21/05/07 01:08 PM

Oh, goody. I suspected you were aware. Now, I know the meaning of your question.
OK,--the blackpowder versions will get more power in longer case lengths, hence, the 3 1/4" version will be more powerful than the 3" or 2 3/4".
HOWEVER, the nitro versions of 3" and 3 1/4" are the same power, only the 3 1/4" works at lower pressure.
The 2 3/4" version nitro is lower in power than both the 3" and 3 1/4", and usually, but not always carries a 650 grain bullet instead of the 750gr.

As for case availability,---now that Jamison Brass is in almost full throttle turning it out, it is a lot easier to get than before. Jamison has 2 3/4", 3", and the 3 1/4" version available, and can be ordered from Buffalo Arms. This is where I get my 3" cases. All of these are usable for not only nitro, but blackpowder as well, in other words, they do both. It may have the headstamp as .577Nitro, but loaded with black, and the proper bullet, is essentially the Blackpowder Express loading.
I've had good luck with Jamison brass, and it is top quality in my opinion.
Of course, Bertram makes it too, and is also offered, but it is of varying quality, and more expensive, which does not reflect it's quality.
Also, A-square, but I would be cautious of them, as they have reportedly soft brass of varying quality also.
Also, Horneber, which can be found at Huntington's, MAY have the .577 in the line-up.

To close, I would say either Buffalo Arms, or Huntington's, can supply any needed cases.

Also, sorry for the confusion in questions. I figured you knew all of that from the start, it's just that, here on the net where no-one can speak in person, I like to cover the bases due to safety's sake. Hope you did not mind. I assure you, I was not speculating on your knowledge of the issue.

p.s.---bullets....bullets are available from Midway, and Huntingtons, however, Buffalo Arms does not carry them. Woodleighs, or Barnes. Although if firing a double, I'd not use Barnes.
Again, I'm sure you know this. Just wanted to add.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (21/05/07 01:17 PM)

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 577 calibers [Re: walksfar]
      #79134 - 22/05/07 07:07 AM

Walksfar,thankyou.

Sorry i did not take the time to make myself somewhat clearer.

So, all in all, what sort of difference are we talking about in performance here?

Any info or even estimates would be gladly received.

Thanks,

Ben

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Bill_Cooley
.300 member


Reged: 14/12/06
Posts: 197
Loc: Fort Worth, Texas
Re: 577 calibers [Re: empirevr]
      #79416 - 26/05/07 01:24 PM

Quote:

Help please;

577x2 3/4" versus 577x3" versus 577x3 1/4".......

Any differences in ballistics???

Many thanks

Ben



As you have noted the 577 had maney diferant loads and case lenth. This is a sampling from Graeme Wrights book.
Original Cordite load 3-inch 100 grains 750 gn bullet 2050 fps 14.0 tpsi
Original Cordite load 3-inch 90 grains 650 gn bullet 1950 fps 14.0 tpsi
Original Cordite load 23/4 inch 90 grains 650 gn bullet 1950 fps 12.5 tpsi
I didn't see aney data for the 3 1/4 case but it should produse lower preshure.
Bill

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 577 calibers [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #79458 - 27/05/07 05:50 AM

Hi

Thanks Bill,

I notice from your listing that the smaller 2 3/4" has the lower pressure, whereas i thought the larger the case, length or diameter, the lesser the pressure,or?

I have found a 12b rifle, and as the bores dont look to be very good, i may sleeve to 577....same thing potency wise is it not? 12b 2.5" chamber...

Thanks

Ben

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