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Hunting >> Hunting in Africa & hunting dangerous game

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Cow ele charge on bowhunter client
#78855 - 18/05/07 02:23 PM

Cow ele charge on bow hunter and PH

A charge on a bowhunting client and a PH where the PH needs to stop the elephant.

Why aren't PHs whom are guiding bow hunter clients on dangerous game also armed with a bow as back up ???

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Michael
.275 member

Reged: 28/07/05
Posts: 69
Loc: Darwin, Northern Territory

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: NitroX]
#78863 - 18/05/07 04:05 PM

I personally don't think that taking game the size of elephants with a bow is ethical.

I recently viewed and American "Hunting" DVD where bowhunters were hunting game in Africa. They were seconded to a well fit out hide that was 15 meters away from a "salt-lick" and waterhole and they shot at the animals that visited there.

Is this hunting?

Who knows whether the animals were free-range or simply released in front of the hide for the bow-hunters? This definately looked staged throughout the DVD, and they may have just as well sat in the back of a truck and shot arrows into foam targets shaped like animals. There was NO hunting whatsoever.

No tracking, no stalking, not even assessment of different animals for trophy or meat value. Just shoot whatever came to the salt lick.

Bag me if you will but this just my honest opinion.

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hoppdoc
.400 member

Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: Michael]
#78867 - 18/05/07 09:04 PM

Hunting and stalking is HUNTING!!Gotta have major cohones to do that.The animal can kill you pronto before it dies.

If you use a bow and arrow properly the animal will bleed to death internally. Would a fatally arrowed elephant suffer more than a fatally arrowed deer? I do not consider that unethical if the arrow can reliably reach the vitals.

Now wether you survive the charge of a pissed off Ele is another matter!!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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AspenHill
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Reged: 08/01/03
Posts: 1528
Loc: Vermont, USA

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: NitroX]
#78874 - 18/05/07 10:03 PM

Quote:

Cow ele charge on bow hunter and PH

A charge on a bowhunting client and a PH where the PH needs to stop the elephant.

Why aren't PHs whom are guiding bow hunter clients on dangerous game also armed with a bow as back up ???

I reviewed the video and it never says the client was hunting elephant. Maybe I missed something but it appears that group was out stalking and the herd was walking in their direction.

So why should a rifle hunter expect a back up with another rifle? It is rather confounding to me that hunters will diminish another because they choose to hunt with something different. I pretty much utilize all types of hunting gear and enjoy the ability to have a choice. My modern bow is as effective on game as a rifle if used at the appropriate distance. My one shot muzzleloader has killed numerous deer. I have been successful with primitive snares to reduce predators.

Dangerous game is just that, dangerous, no one goes with out back up, period. There are numerous rifle hunters who make very poor shots on DBG and their PH's have to finish it for them. There are plenty of deaths every year by hunters/PH's carrying firearms on a DBG hunt. Does anyone know how many bow hunters have been killed on safari?

--------------------
~Ann

Everyday spent outdoors is the best day of my life.

Aspen Hill Adventures

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NitroX
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39249
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: AspenHill]
#78875 - 18/05/07 10:30 PM

Ann

I am not critising hunters for using a bow, just asking a question.

You are right. It is not clear if the client is hunting elephant or not with his bow.

But back to the question. If it is truly bow hunting, or muzzleloader hunting, or whatever, should not all parties be armed with the same tools?

This topic first came up when the infernal .45/70 supporters kept claiming it was a perfectly acceptable hunting tool. And evidence was clients hunting buffalo, elephant or whatever with them. But ALWAYS the PH had a DECENT rifle as back up.

Same story with a bow, spear or whatever.

BTW I have heard some guys are intending to hunt buffalo with a throwing spear soon. I hope the PH also has one as backup.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: AspenHill]
#80298 - 11/06/07 12:43 AM

I agree entirely with Ann. I have hunted most of my life with a bow as well as rifle, shotgun, pistol, etc. It is sad that we can't all just stick together.. there is enough divisivness from tne anti's without us going after one another.

As to hunting at a waterhole or salt lick.. this is no different than hunting whitetail out of a treestand or a waterhold here in the US for antelope.. or calling a bull elk with a call?? you still judge, you scout to see where to put the tree stand.. you DON"T shoot every animal that comes by..at least I don't --and YES, it IS still hunting, IMHO..

As to the lethality of the arrow, some of the quickest kills I have ever made have been with an arrow.. most of the elk I have shot are dead and gone within a minute or less--with the quickest being 22 seconds.. I have seen plenty of game shot with rifles that have not died that quickly --I am NOT opposing hunting with rifles, quite the opposite... again just reiterating that we need to ALL stick together.. this is one topic where even joking can be used against us.. unfortunately that is the world in which we live..

Thank you

Ripp

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: Ripp]
#80304 - 11/06/07 02:10 AM

Ripp, I have essentially no problem with any method used to harvest game. In my view the maintenance of healthy populations of game is the ultimate goal of harvesting. Harvesting game is the taking of a crop in the same way that we ranch our cattle and sheep and don't kill eliminate too many. It is in essence "farming" of a sort, nothing more though obviously there is highly sophisticated culture surrounding hunting most everywhere it is pursued.

Some around here consider the hunting of deer with hounds "immoral" or shooting deer over bait "immoral". Both of those things are illegal here and a cultural stigma has grown around such activity.

I do not consider any such activity "immoral", only illegal. I have no problem with Alabama deer hunters shooting hound hunted deer or Michigan deer hunters shooting deer over a pile of apples.

But I am very uncomfortable with a blanket statement being made that any disagreement with any hunting method is a form of treason of sorts. Does anybody here accept "lion hunting" that takes place in 40 acre enclosures? Would rejection of that method constitute prostration before the antihunters?

No, I do think that we need to support each other, but I also think we need to police each other. Intelligent, reasoned dialogue is the right kind of policing.

I too have thought the same exact thing as NITROX puts forth. My personal opinion is that his question should not be treated as rhetoric but as a legitimate question, and answered as such. I have no problem with bow hunters being backed up with a rifle, but why aren't bow hunters backed up with a bow? The reason is obvious and the fact that it is obvious is just one of those things that might support the antihunters in the minds of many non-hunters IMO.

Edited by 9ThreeXFifty7 (11/06/07 02:26 AM)

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Ripp
.577 member

Reged: 19/02/07
Posts: 16072
Loc: Montana, USA

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: 9.3x57]
#80306 - 11/06/07 03:46 AM

Quote:

But I am very uncomfortable with a blanket statement being made that any disagreement with any hunting method is a form of treason of sorts. Does anybody here accept "lion hunting" that takes place in 40 acre enclosures? Would rejection of that method constitute prostration before the antihunters?

Perhaps I should have been more precise in my statement--the point I was trying to make is--at times, there seems to be some out there that literally jump at the opportunity to put down a fellow hunter or another type of hunting... which I think is complete bullshit. For an example, how many times do you read a hunting magazine where some blow hole writes in complaining that in a particular photo, the guns bolt was not open, or that it was kind of pointed at someone while taking the photo---IMHO all they are attempting to do is get some print time.. or they are complete idiots..

I totally agree, we should police ourselves and feel that is great. I am also not opposed to various opinions of any kind--but again my main point is "let's not be so quick to judge".

Just as you mentioned, I don't find anything wrong with chasing lions, leopards, bears, etc. with a dog.. If anyone has done even a little bit of this they know it is not an easy ordeal.. I have gone on many all day sprints, hikes, whatever, in ankle to waist deep snow while in the pursuit of mountain lions ,, and many times not successful.. again, back to what I commented on in another thread... people have a tendancy to give their opinions on topics when in fact they have never even done them.

Sorry to ramble--too much coffee on a Sunday morning

Ripp

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shatter
.224 member

Reged: 02/01/05
Posts: 41
Loc: Germany

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: NitroX]
#80309 - 11/06/07 05:29 AM

Quote:

Why aren't PHs whom are guiding bow hunter clients on dangerous game also armed with a bow as back up???

Yes, there's a funny thought ... one for the real sports ...

Joachim

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: 9.3x57]
#80365 - 12/06/07 03:04 AM

Quote:

Ripp, I too have thought the same exact thing as NITROX puts forth. My personal opinion is that his question should not be treated as rhetoric but as a legitimate question, and answered as such. I have no problem with bow hunters being backed up with a rifle, but why aren't bow hunters backed up with a bow? The reason is obvious , and the fact that it is obvious is just one of those things that might support the antihunters in the minds of many non-hunters IMO.

I agree with Ripp, the answer as to why , is obvious, where dangerous game is involved. Still, in the USA if a person is being guided for anything durring a bow season, the guide is not allowed to have a firearm in the field, regardless of what animal is being hunted. The way the game people get around this, there is no bow only season on dangerous game in North America, that I'm aware of! SO!, the question doesn not apply, unless the bow hunter is hunting, with as bow,durring a rifle season, or a any weapon season, as in Alaska. There a bow hunter is allowed to have a firearm with him while hunting with a bow, but there is no bow only season there. The reason for this is obvious as well, because a bow can't be relied on to STOP, anything that wants to get to you to do bite&scratch!

I have no problem with any hunting that is legal, for the area where it takes place. That is a cultureal call, not hunting ethic, that incumpuses us all, everywhere! The hunting from a tree stand over a game trail between bedding areas, and food source is no different from hunting in a hide over places where game pass no matter why he is going there, be it food, water,or bedding areas! This includes food that was placed in that particular spot to attract a game animal. There is no guarintee the animal will come there simply because you think it should. If you don't believe that ask any serious Leopard, or bear hunter!

.................Just one opinion, and not binding on anyone here or elsewhere!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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9.3x57
.450 member

Reged: 22/04/07
Posts: 5504
Loc: United States

Re: Cow ele charge on bowhunter client [Re: DUGABOY1]
#80457 - 13/06/07 12:59 AM

The concept of "divide and rule" was masterfully executed by the Anti's some years back when a wave of "Propositions" swept the West regarding bear & cougar hunting and the use of bait and hounds. Fortunately we here in Idaho stood together and voted down the attempt to stop these practices. But in other states hunters split and ate each other in public. The result was of course the cessation of the practices in Washington State and since then the problems associated with the end to hounding and baiting.

As I understand it, the practices still go on, sort of, demanded by depredation and at taxpayer expense.

With the influx of "fer'ners" into Idaho I am not certain whether we could send the Anti's packing were we to be faced with another "attack", but the truth has had some time to get out about both critters when "left alone" and I don't think the Anti's are willing to tackle it anytime soon.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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