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hoppdoc
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Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber???
      #78023 - 05/05/07 10:12 AM

Had an interesting conversation with hunting buddies,NONE who own Doubles. Of course many own O/U and SxS shotguns.Among other things we reviewed the basics and possible advantages of Doubles.I discussed my meager knowledge of Brand/caliber and approximate cost.They wanted to know the best most accurate cost effective Double for the money and what caliber to consider.

So good gentlemen, what would you suggest as a BEST BUY for a gunowners first Double? Why is it better than others? How much would it cost? What brand/caliber? How should it be accessorized?

Thanks to all beforehand for any info/opinions shared.Your knowledge is consumer power waiting to act.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78036 - 05/05/07 06:25 PM

It would depend on what they want to do with it. For a curious American/Canadian/European/Australia, etc who is NOT planning to go to Africa a Merkel or Chapuis in 9.3x74r is my recomendation. Or is tradition is not important, one of the cheaper O/U in 9/3x74r or another medium caliber, this would be even cheaper. Simple, cheap, works, and a useful caliber for those counties. I said 9.3x74r because it'll work on most anything hunted in those countries, and its relatively easy to find ammo or reload.

If the guy or gal is thinking about Africa that changes things. I guess a Merkel or Chapuis in 470 would get my vote.

Just my thoughts.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: Chasseur]
      #78041 - 05/05/07 09:34 PM

The Chapuis doubles in 9.3X74R are indeed far and away the cheapest available DRs, and the build quality is excellent. I believe William Larkin Moore has at least one in stock and pictured at his site. And, since the 9.3X74R is just a tad behind the 375 H&H ballistically, there isn't anything on the North American continent you would be undergunned in pursuing. Ammo is also readily available from several sources. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: Chasseur]
      #78111 - 06/05/07 09:06 PM

How about the Valmet 412 system doubles?


Are they still obtainable?


There are some O/U 9.3's out there too--
I think 9.3 x 74R ammo is getting easier to obtain as well.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/976868510/Guns/Rifles/Double-Rifles/HEYM_9_3x74R.htm

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (06/05/07 09:09 PM)

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Marrakai
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78165 - 07/05/07 09:34 PM

In Australia, the best buy would have to be a vintage British top-lever hammer-gun chambered for the .450 or .500 Express cartridge. These can still be picked up for the equivalent of $3000 to $5000 USD here, in serviceable condition with good bores, and are excellent all-round hunting doubles when loaded 'nitro-for-black' with bonded-core soft-points.

The various .450 Expresses will turn up around 1950 fps with a 350-grain Woodleigh, that's nearly 3000 ftlbs muzzle energy, with a mid-range trajectory of less than an inch when sighted dead-on at 100 yards. No elk, boar, or white-tail would be safe within 150 yards!

The .500 N-for-B usually gets a 440gr JSP up to 1900 fps, for around 3500 ftlbs ME, and a similar trajectory.

For the dyed-in-the-wool scope shooters, try practicing shooting with open express sights, and you will find a whole new world will open up to you. The challenge of stalking game on a level playing field with the likes of Baker, Selous, Neumann, et al will add an extra dimension to the pleasure and satisfaction derived from your days in the hunting field.

I realise that there are many who have been convinced that vintage Brit doubles are somehow full of mystery, and mere mortals cannot possibly be expected to identify potential faults at the point of purchase, but in reality most faults will be glaring, and the vast majority (excepting bore condition) can be rectified with a little TLC , or for the manually challenged, a few dollars. We are talking about a 'good shooter' here after all, not the centre-piece of a collection.

The only accessory I would recommend to improve the looks is a smear of blood on the butstock from the first head of big game you manage to successfully flatten with the ol'girl!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78180 - 08/05/07 04:06 AM




Model 140
Photo to come.
The Model 140 is a self cocking, Anson & Deeley boxlock with cocking indicators, side clips and receiver ledge. Greener crossbolt with double under barrel locking lugs. Double trigger with the option to have the front trigger as a set trigger. Also, a single, non-selective trigger is available on special order and at extra cost. Automatic tang-mounted sliding safety. Case ejection through split cartridge slide or Holland & Holland ejector for rimless cartridges with extractor claw. Ejectors available at extra cost. Barrel Length 600mm (23.6") and weight approximately 3.5kg (7.7lb). Classic English-style pistol-grip oil-finished walnut stock (Hogsback available on request). Receiver is colour case hardened and hand engraved in Arabesque pattern with higher grades of engraving available at extra cost.
Imported into Australia in 7x65R, .308Win, .30/06, .30 Blaser, 8x57IRS and 9.3x74R.


The above is a best buy for a first double rifle, IMO! And mine is 9.3X74R. This little rifle has become my favorite double rifle under .400 cal!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78183 - 08/05/07 04:32 AM

I see that in OZ, the Merkels come with the scope bases installed. I find scopes to be fairly useful on these DRs. I have a 141 in a 30-06 with a Zeiss that, for a DR, is a 'tack driver.' Not going to retire any of my benchrest rifles in its favor, but at my advanced age, quite an improvement over iron sights. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Chasseur
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: Marrakai]
      #78184 - 08/05/07 04:36 AM

Marakai,

When I get down there next June you've got to help me find a hammer 500BPE for less than $5,000!!!!!

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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hoppdoc
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78196 - 08/05/07 10:46 AM

Here's a 141 Merkel Double that could be great fun--

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100003256&string=cid=479

or an O/U--

http://www.gunsinternational.com/detail.cfm?id=100000383&string=cid=479

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (08/05/07 10:48 AM)

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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78354 - 10/05/07 10:08 AM

The 141 is built on a 28ga 'chassis' with most other 'small' doubles sized like a 20ga. I have and enjoy a scoped 141 in 30-06. Next to my 160 (sidelock, ex-IWA gun) in 7,65R, the 141 looks and feels like it shrank in the wash. Shots great and carrys well. Price is not unreasonable and workmanship, like all of the Merkels I have owned or seen, is first rate. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: dnovo]
      #78369 - 10/05/07 11:43 AM

Dave-
What distances have you shot your 30.06 Merkel at??

How much does it weigh scoped??

A 30.06 in a bolt rifle is a reasonable 300 yd hunting gun.

How it groups at distance(200+ yds) would be a factor in its purchase as an additional Double for me as well as potential first time buyers.

Interesting the frames and calibers available.

http://www.granitearms.com/Merkel-DR-SS.htm

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (10/05/07 12:05 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78519 - 12/05/07 10:08 AM

I rarely use it past 100yds. I don't consider a double for use beyond that range. Indeed, most of my shooting is at 50 or 75yds at the most. Even then, the longer ranges are for my lighter guns, the 25-3000 Webley, the Merkel 160 in 7.65R and my O/Us in 270, 30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag.

Why? Why not, as I have a slew of bolts and single shots for further out -- including a 408 CheyTac single shot built by Lawton Machine that seem real relaxed at 2300 to 2500 yds (but I cheat, we use a PDA and a small wind/weather machine in setting up shots. Plus, it is a bit hard to shoot from the shoulder )

No, seriously, I haven't tried it past 100 (and I only tried it at a 100 once) although it has the capacity to reregulate the barrel by the owner and I guess there would be no reason not to set it up to shot at 200. I just don't see the need to use a double at that range. They are not capable of the same inherent accuracy as a bolt or single shot. The purpose of a double is to have a short, handy, light weapon (for the power of the rifle) to carry and use at shorter range on a variety of game, dangerous or otherwise. I also don't think that the forcing a double to shot at a range that is outside of its inherent parameters will just make for wounded game, and serves no purpose.

Horses for courses and doubles for shorter ranges and leave the longer ranges to other 'horses.' Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (12/05/07 10:16 AM)

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: dnovo]
      #78537 - 12/05/07 03:55 PM

My thoughts were to utilize the quick 2nd shot of the Double at distance to hit the animal again if it doesn't stay down with the first shot.

This seems a reasonable use of a Double at distance and would logically imply a faster, more accurate shooting than racking a bolt with marked hand movements and shooting a 2nd shot.

I have no Double to prove that theory but it seems logical.I would love to get a scoped 30.06 Double and try it on a Dozen deer to see if it is correct!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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500Nitro
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78538 - 12/05/07 04:12 PM


Hopdoc

I invariably fire the 2nd barrel unless it dropped stone dead on the first shot. As to distance, if I know my DR Rifle is accurate past 100 and the animal is still running at that distace, then I keep shooting if I ave a reasonable chance of a hit. It has worked for me in the past but I am selective as to whether I shoot or run after it first and then shoot.

In regards to speed, 2nd shot is nearly always quicker with a double.

I can get 4 very accurate, aimed shots off from a Bolt Action 30-06 in 9 seconds. A bigger cal, 375, 404 probably 10 - 12 Seconds.

I haven't done a direct comparison with a DR but I would think they would be similar speeds. Maybe I should try it.

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NE450No2
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78641 - 14/05/07 02:47 PM

For your first double a 9,3x74R would be hard to beat.
I have one in a Chapuis. I have taken quite a bit of game with it in North America, Canada, and 3 Safaris to Zimbabwe.

I have taken giraffe, my biggest cape buff, and elephant as well.

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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: NE450No2]
      #78652 - 14/05/07 10:29 PM

Okay, so I decided to end my personal debate on this matter and took the Merkel 141 in 30-06 out to the range Sunday to see how it would work at 100 and 200 yds. Since this rifle (and the Blaser S2 I since sold off) both allow for 'user' adjustments at the muzzles, I started off at 100. The rounds were perfectly placed with the left bbl slightly above the right. (This is the factory setting that this one had come set up for, at shorter ranges there is a slight spread, but still quite acceptable, minute of deer at least.) Moving out to 150, the bbls crossed and at 200, the crossing was quite apparent. Two boxes of ammo later, and tweaking one 'click' at a time (and carefully noting the original position) brought the crossing issue and accuracy under control at 200. Then back to the original setting (letting the barrels cool off while I shot something else and return to 'cold' and I was back to where I wanted to be at 100.

Now will this work with a more 'traditional' NE or DR cartridge? The 30-06 is a faster, flatter shooting round than most DR chamberings so I don't know. However, I still find my bolts damn near as fast, using a Sig 970HR that I picked up a few years ago in the same caliber as a test subject. I found that with this rifle, and its very slick bolt action, I was not that far off in my second round at 200 as I was with the Merkel. I then tried my personal favorite 'fast bolt' or kinda, a Hammerli-built Swiss K-31 civilian target in 7.5X55, no slouch in the ballistic race and an action faster than greased lightning with its straight pull bolt. Virtually no difference in speed of second shot.

As I said before, horses for courses. I am a bug on straight pull bot actions, and besides the Swiss Schmidt Rubins my son collects and I get the chance to pay for from time to time (nice of the old geezer, eh?) my Blaser LSR2 in multiple calibers, Browning Acera in 30-06, and my Heym 3000 are virtually as fast to cycle as a DR with more ease of staying on target for the follow up rounds at longer ranges because of the stock design -- to say nothing of the additional rounds in the magazine.

So, yes, you can shot that DR at more than 100yds, but I still prefer a bolt action at anything over 100. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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hoppdoc
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: dnovo]
      #78667 - 15/05/07 03:08 AM

Great!!

Dave -you have proved again what I have wondered about with DR's and regulation for ?long range shooting(?200yds for a Double).

A medium DR in 30.06 or 8x57JRS,etc should be great out to 200+yds.Less hand motion for the 2nd shot should be an aid to accuracy vs a bolt.I usually find if I can't down the animal with two quick shots then a ??long tracking quest may follow.

A DR with a qd scope for African Plains game would give a double rifle hunter much more range of options when hunting.Neat!!

Now I gotta have one!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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dnovo
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78672 - 15/05/07 04:08 AM

There are more loads and bullets available for a commercially loaded 30-06 than a 8X57JRS. Dave

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Time Wounds All Heels

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empirevr
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: NE450No2]
      #78675 - 15/05/07 07:51 AM

Quote:

For your first double a 9,3x74R would be hard to beat.
I have one in a Chapuis. I have taken quite a bit of game with it in North America, Canada, and 3 Safaris to Zimbabwe.

I have taken giraffe, my biggest cape buff, and elephant as well.



Crikey.......

Ok the giraffe i can imagine, but those other 2 also with the 9.3? I have heard it was possible but didnt know anyone had actually done it, at least recently...i salute you!

Well i wish mine were made of brass too!!! There was i wondering if a 9.3 would be risky on very big pigs......

Ben

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NE450No2
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: empirevr]
      #78684 - 15/05/07 10:15 AM

Ben
I have killed several pigs with my 9,3 Chapuis including 2 over 300lbs, weighed on my deer scale that goes to 300lbs, they bottomed it out.
I have also taken over 15 zebra, and several other plains game, 2 black bear, and small stuff like caracle, civit, jackle, bobcat, turkey, "g" fowl, raccoons, and even a beaver.

The elephant was taken at 5 yards with a 286gr Woodleigh Solid, the Cape Buff at 60 yards, frontal chest with a 286gr woodleigh Soft. He was down and dead in less than 40 yards.

The giraffe took 2 286gr Woodleigh Solids to bring him down, I fired one finisher.

The 9,3x74R Double, scoped, is one of the best hunting rifles on Planet Earth.

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empirevr
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: NE450No2]
      #78723 - 16/05/07 04:30 AM

Blimey...

Well i must hand it to you, thats some great hunting.

Didnt you feel under gunned at all???

Ben

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NE450No2
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: empirevr]
      #78744 - 16/05/07 02:46 PM

Ben
I have 2 other doubles a 450 No2 and a 450/400 3 1/4".
Both have killed buff and elephant.

I must admit when standing 5 yards from the elephant, with several elephants at 10 to 15 yards away the "little Chapuis" felt "light". However at the shot the 286 Woodleigh solid went completely through the elephants head...

After that the "little" 9,3 never worried me at all.

I would not hesitate to do another 35 day Safari with several buff and elephant on quota with only the 9,3x74R.

It is a killer way beyond its paper ballistics.

I would prefer it to ANY bolt rifle.

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empirevr
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Re: Best Buy First Double-What brand/caliber??? [Re: NE450No2]
      #78774 - 17/05/07 07:05 AM

Hi

You should post the full story, sounds very interesting, i would say that by todays standards and on here your the Bell of our time!!!

Some areas are restrictive regarding the 9.3 are they not? Zimbabwe for example,no?

Dont get me tempted, i do know of a nice 9.3 double for low money, but i have my heart leant towards a 577 express double.....

Those old guns have a different feel and everything, though i do like this new range of handy 9.3's......one i spotted is an Antonio Zoli.

All the best,

Ben

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