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hoppdoc
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"Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles??
      #78491 - 12/05/07 05:17 AM

I am a Double newbie and have experience owning only Merkel rifles.I remain curious and confused regarding the specific differences between "best" quality rifles vs higher end entry Doubles such as Heym and other Double manufacturors.

Obviously "best" quality rifles have more labor/time with metal/wood fit and have engraving etc.The ?timing of their internal parts function is proper etc.The Heym appears to have great quality of manufacturing as well.

Would someone please inform me in my ignorance regarding the specific judging of the quality of a Double rifle feature by feature.What is different between a higher end Heym or similar Double with engraving and a "best" (name hidden)quality Double??

Thanks to all for any info which can enlighten me further.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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500Nitro
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78495 - 12/05/07 05:58 AM



hopdoc

Fr a start, a "best" gun is almost always a Sidelock.

In the past, everything was done by hand.

It seems, IMHO, that the "best" guns are really those
that are the top model of a companies line, with most of the best features and the metal work, metal to wood fit and everything about them is just finite.

I'll let others go further.

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dnovo
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78497 - 12/05/07 07:58 AM

I offer this caveat to "a 'best' gun is almost always a Sidelock." Unless, of course, it is a Westley Richards droplock. I have always considered those to be a 'best gun' as they are built with the same care and attention, although the 'sidelock' mechanism just happens to be located in a different part of the gun Dave (who treasures his 1907 built, pristine and top of the line 476 WR Droplock as he should, as a work of art and a rara avis indeed.)

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (12/05/07 08:01 AM)

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DUGABOY1
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78507 - 12/05/07 08:35 AM

Hoppdoc, the "BEST" designation is simply the top of the line of any maker, and is simply the same rifle as their regular rifles, but far more attention is taken with detail. The wood is tops, and the hand work is very well done. Decoration is usually VERY well done. In some cases these rifle are even boxlocks with side plates, but not often. As 500Nitro says, most are true sidelocks, and of course the price is much higher!
As an investment, these are the one that aprecieate the most, but they kill Buffalo no better than a well made, but less refined double of the same chambering!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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500Nitro
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: dnovo]
      #78511 - 12/05/07 09:02 AM

Quote:

I offer this caveat to "a 'best' gun is almost always a Sidelock." Unless, of course, it is a Westley Richards droplock. I have always considered those to be a 'best gun' as they are built with the same care and attention, although the 'sidelock' mechanism just happens to be located in a different part of the gun Dave (who treasures his 1907 built, pristine and top of the line 476 WR Droplock as he should, as a work of art and a rara avis indeed.)



dnovo


valid point re Westley Droplocks -I put the higher end models of Droplocks in the same category as Sidelocks.

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dnovo
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78515 - 12/05/07 09:48 AM

"I put the higher end models of Droplocks in the same category as Sidelocks." Apparently so does the market, as they fetch the same prices. Dave

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Time Wounds All Heels

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mickey
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78517 - 12/05/07 10:03 AM

Quote:

Hoppdoc, the "BEST" designation is simply the top of the line of any maker, and is simply the same rifle as their regular rifles, but far more attention is taken with detail.



Mac

I don't consider the 'best gun' a maker makes as necessarily a 'Best Gun'.

There is much more work internally than externally, if you deduct the time for engraving in a 'Best Gun". They are as close to perfect as a gun or rifle can be and not every, nor most, gunmakers are capable of doing it.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Edited by mickey (12/05/07 10:10 AM)

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mehulkamdar
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: 500Nitro]
      #78530 - 12/05/07 12:17 PM

Greener offered their Facile Princeps actioned doubles as the top of their line, a non-sidelock. They recently reintroduced them into production for the first time after WW-2. Westley Richards price their droplocks below their sidelocks for new guns and call the Sidelock "The epitome of the classic English best gun" on their website.

The Scots also had their fine trigger plate actions.

All in all a vast range of fine gun types for someone to select something from, if looking for a best gun.

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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hoppdoc
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: mickey]
      #78543 - 12/05/07 09:42 PM

Please list the concensus makers capable of a first rate English "best" gun with built-in $$appreciation-obviously
H&H,WR,??DavidMcKay,Army/Navy,Jeffery,Lancaster,Purdey,Rigby,
Webley&Scott,William Douglass,and Greener,but who else??

Who are the lesser names that make "best" quality guns that would also appreciate in value,be a better buy, same quality, and be less well known??
Lang,Gibbs,Boswell,?Atkin,Horton,Fraser,I Hollis,Lancaster,Watson,Woodard??

Would a sidelock Heym or Thys be the same "best" level of quality although non English? Any other future "best" best buy favorites out there? TT Proctor? Chapuis? German makes?

Edited by hoppdoc (12/05/07 10:09 PM)

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dnovo
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78545 - 12/05/07 10:25 PM

Conventional 'wisdom' would call a 'best gun' a British DR only. I have an absolutely incredible Merkel sidelock built in the '30s that has all the earmarks of a 'best gun' but I am sure I would get an argument from purists on that. I also have a Josef Winkler sidelock single shot that has fit, finish, engraving, and wood that would be up there with any H&H or Purdey ever built. I have also seen Ferlach and German guns built to the same high standards belonging to friends who also collect.

I think the purist would insist that DRs reached their height with the 1900-1920s British 'best' guns and they would be right in the sense of how the term is defined. However, if defined as 'best' by judging the qualities I mentioned, then there is no 'name', only a specific, gun by gun test. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

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Marrakai
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: dnovo]
      #78549 - 12/05/07 11:41 PM

The reason why most Americans have trouble with the term "best gun" is that its use was very parochial within the British gun trade during the vintage years, and at the time needed no explanation as everyone in shooting circles was 'brought up' with the terminology of the day and knew what it meant.

I suggest reading Chris Austyn's book "Modern Sporting Guns", for some insight into the use of the term. Especially Chapter 1: 'Best English Guns'!

The term means 'best quality', and generally speaking the configuration would need to be sidelock, stocked to the fences (although early guns often weren't), ejector, full coverage of fine scroll, no front lump protruding through the floor-plate, fine stock figure, chopper-lump barrels (if fluid steel), etc, etc. Then it would need to be finished with the best possible workmanship to qualify. Almost all 'best guns' were built to the individual specifications of the customer.

Not all British firms made 'best guns', and some firms like W&C Scott made just about everyone else's best guns in the early years!

Although most 'best guns' were SLEs, some Greener 'Facile Princeps' guns (the 'Royal' or 'Special' grades) were made up in 'best quality', and the WR droplocks sometimes were, but both these firms also made high-grade sidelock ejectors that they would have preferred to call their 'best guns' in the catalogues of the day. Likewise, Dickson also made a few SLEs as well as their marvellous round-action guns.

If you own a Holland Royal or Modele de Luxe, or a Purdey SLE, or a Woodward Automatic, or a Churchill Premier et al, you are undoubtedly the owner of a 'best gun' by anyone's standards, but the only way to be certain is to obtain a copy of the maker's ledger, and look for those magic words: "Best Quality"!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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hoppdoc
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: Marrakai]
      #78555 - 13/05/07 02:40 AM

Great info--

I assume the highest appreciation/yr would be with the best known British best quality guns.

Among the lesser known best quality British rifles is there a $$ saving or is it all a level playing field?

Among the non British Doubles I imagine the field widens considerably.

How much for a ?best quality used 2nd hand sidelock like a Merkel/Chapuis or other such non British Double vs a best quality British gun?? Obviously you would contact the maker as well for gun specifics. The appreciation may actually be limited by its name although the quality may be nearly comparable.Which ones are best buys??

Any favorite websites to frequent while cruising for deals on best quality rifles?

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (13/05/07 02:45 AM)

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Ripp
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: mickey]
      #78589 - 13/05/07 11:43 PM



I don't consider the 'best gun' a maker makes as necessarily a 'Best Gun'.

There is much more work internally than externally, if you deduct the time for engraving in a 'Best Gun". They are as close to perfect as a gun or rifle can be and not every, nor most, gunmakers are capable of doing it.



You are exactly correct, there is much more work internally which is why the "English Best Guns" are damanding premium prices. In todays world many of the "new" doubles are produced using CNC machines with the final process done by hand. This compares to the days of old when, per Paul Roberts, the old English Best guns took 800 to 900 hours of manual labor by skilled craftsman to produce that type of quality in a double.

There is no way in terms of todays dollars, the average individual looking for a double could afford what it would cost to produce a weapon like that. Which is why Merkel, Krieghoff, Searcy, etc are able to sell their guns for the prices they do. I am not saying these guns are inferior or bad in any way, just saying they are not made almost exclusivly by hand like they were in the early 1900's.

Anyone who has handled a "Best" gun can certainly attest to the difference in feel. They seem to point by themselves, vitually having a will of their own..

Ripp

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DUGABOY1
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: Ripp]
      #78600 - 14/05/07 01:33 AM

Quote:



I don't consider the 'best gun' a maker makes as necessarily a 'Best Gun'.

There is much more work internally than externally, if you deduct the time for engraving in a 'Best Gun". They are as close to perfect as a gun or rifle can be and not every, nor most, gunmakers are capable of doing it.



In todays world many of the "new" doubles are produced using CNC machines with the final process done by hand.

There is no way in terms of todays dollars, the average individual looking for a double could afford what it would cost to produce a weapon like that. Which is why Merkel, Krieghoff, Searcy, etc are able to sell their guns for the prices they do. I am not saying these guns are inferior or bad in any way, just saying they are not made almost exclusivly by hand like they were in the early 1900's.

Anyone who has handled a "Best" gun can certainly attest to the difference in feel. They seem to point by themselves, vitually having a will of their own..

Ripp




I agree with everything RIP has to say here. I edited his post in the above quote, not to change his meaning, but simply to retain only the points I want t address!

The "best gun" name of any maker is not the best gun one can buy, but is what the makers consider "HIS" best effort.

On the note about the CNC comment, all, every, maker today uses the CNC mechines to do the bulk of the cutting of unwanted steel away. The difference bewteen most of the top makers, and Merkel Chapuis, Searcy, and the others is, the AMOUNT of final finishing of the HAND work after the CNC is through. Finally the seemingly self pointing is not limited to only "best guns" or British makes, but is the result of fitting the shooter, and perfect ballance. I have several German doubles that exibit the very same qualities as the Britt "BEST GUN" handleing. This in very plain working firearms. I have a little German H. BERELLA double that is as well ballanced, and with the fit and finish as good as any Britt gun I've ever handled, BEST, or otherwise! The side locks when removed look like fine clock work and the inletting into the rifle, and wood is so precice that it forms a suction when removed, and everything finished INSIDE, like the best I've ever seen. This is a double I paid $125 for 40 years ago, because ammo was not available for it, and the owner had brought it back from the WWII, as a souvineer, and had never fired it. Still with the care this double was made, it will not bring the price that a Britt of the same level would, not even close, so all the value in a "BEST GUN" is not quality, but buyer perception!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78601 - 14/05/07 01:35 AM

Yet another super thread on NE forums.....

What about from a use point of view???

For example, can an old Brit gun be used the way a modern gun can?

Are they as tough, or they even tougher? (steel/build)

I believe greatly in old steel, but with guns i notice things differ a tad with regards to pressures and such.....

Ben

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DUGABOY1
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78603 - 14/05/07 01:56 AM

Empirevr, IMO, there is diffinetly an difference in steel used today and that used in the late 19th century! And I believe the steel of today is the best that has ever been used in firearms. That said, I don't think, as long as the regulating loads are used exclusively, there is any worry about the longivity of the old rifles, as long thay are cared for properly also.

I do think that some of barrel makeing process' make better barrels than many of the old ways of makeing barrels. The steel in the action bodies, and that used in the enternal parts wears far better, with less care, than the old ones. That only goes to the strength of material, but the way, and percision with which these parts are made, and fitted, is what will give you the benefite of that extra wear factor.

There are many bargains out there today, in some of the off the shelf double rifles, and at least one made to fit rifle, that are great values for money spent. That doesn't mean they as good as the real high dollar names out there, but for field use, will do anything any double rifle will do,but just have some rough edges. If you can look past that, the Off the Shelf rifles will serve you well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78607 - 14/05/07 02:08 AM

Quote:

Yet another super thread on NE forums.....

What about from a use point of view???

For example, can an old Brit gun be used the way a modern gun can?

Are they as tough, or they even tougher? (steel/build)

I believe greatly in old steel, but with guns i notice things differ a tad with regards to pressures and such.....

Ben



Ben

Interesting question.

Can an old Brit rifle be used in the same way as a new rifle? Depends.

If you are talking about hunting than absolutely, it is probably a much better made weapon and more reliable if maintained.

If you are talking about target practice and shooting hundreds of full blown loads, of overloads, as some on AR do, than probably not. The steel in today's weapons is definitely higher quality.

But what is good enough and what is more than needed? When you try and use a tank to do the job of a Ferrari than you get a Ferrari that handles like a tank. Entry level rifles try and compromise but it is always easier to build big and strong than slim and strong.

By the way I saw some pics of a Searcy sidelock that looked very nice. It seems Searcy will slow down on the entry level rifles, that he can no longer compete with anyway, and concentrate on better quality for more money.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78609 - 14/05/07 02:15 AM

Dugaboy1

Thanks....

Thing i go by with general steel, well i have worked with steel a fair bit in the past i must admit, is that old steel doesnt rust the same way as new steel.

Take your typical bowie knife for instance, old ones are tough as anything and the rust just leaves very gentle pitting marks and thats it. You can knock the rust off even.

Now take the modern ones, even by a good brand maker, they seem to dissolve when rust takes.

I expect gun steel has to be better than even knife steel even these days....fair enough!

Must say i do like my old guns.......but wouldnt refuse a new one either!

Other thing is......what if one prefers the old calibers?? I happen to.....

Ben

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78610 - 14/05/07 02:19 AM

Thanks Mick

Well i find it hard to resist the old guns, Brit/Scots/Irish.....

Its time for me to choose and purchase, i have been looking for a long time now i must say...

Every time i come across an old one it is either too highly priced altogether,sold, or has pits which the dealer 'forgot' to mention.

Damn the bloody day i ignored that Dougal lockfast 500x3" for £2,500..........

That was the best bpe i have ever heard of.

High relief engraved with lion, elephant and tiger/buffalo.....in its own antique motoring case too.

Lesson learned; if it seems right, get it fast.

Ben

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78613 - 14/05/07 02:53 AM

Well..

http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details2.asp?id=C4313R

Guess it doesnt HAVE to be English eh?

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DUGABOY1
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78618 - 14/05/07 05:11 AM

Quote:

Well..

http://www.bobjonesguns.com/details2.asp?id=C4313R

Guess it doesnt HAVE to be English eh?



I live about ten miles from that rifle! I've been looking at it for some time, and the price is right, but I'm trying to decide between a Safari, and another double rifle!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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Ripp
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: empirevr]
      #78619 - 14/05/07 05:21 AM

What about from a use point of view???

For example, can an old Brit gun be used the way a modern gun can?

Are they as tough, or they even tougher? (steel/build)

I believe greatly in old steel, but with guns i notice things differ a tad with regards to pressures and such.....

Ben



FYI
Older doubles should not be shot with monolithic solids--as in Barnes solids.. the older guns were not made for this type of hard bullet and yes, it can and has damaged the barrels of older doubles. Some may disagree with this, but ALL of my conversations I have had with makers have all stated this to be true..

Thank you
RIPP

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: Ripp]
      #78621 - 14/05/07 05:25 AM

dugaboy1/Mac?

Have you handled it then? I mailed Bob asking if it has pits or not.

I know what you mean about decisions.......

Ripp thanks, i intend to use only that which will not harm my future double.

Ben

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hoppdoc
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: Ripp]
      #78630 - 14/05/07 11:34 AM

Maybe I am just overly cautious but if I had a $25,000+ gun--
Call me a wuss but I doubt I would be putting full bore solid loads thru it. Even Woodleigh solids can damage old bores not on spec.Might damage that $$$$ rifle.

I would load my Merkel to full factory velocity and have few concerns before I would put a 70-100 year old "best" rifle with old steel thru multiple max loadings.I may be the exception but I would want to preserve the "best quality" rifle as an investment that appreciates.

It all comes down to money and what you wish to risk.If I tear up a Merkel Chapuis or Heym it can be fixed.Not so with a "best" Brit Rifle.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

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empirevr
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Re: "Best " Quality Doubles vs other Doubles?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #78676 - 15/05/07 08:01 AM

Dugaboy1 that rifle has sold!!!

Ah well theres plenty more fish in the sea, albeit dead and slightly rotten.

The days not so long ago when the bpe's were easy to be had for peanuts has clearly gone....

I started looking about ooh, must be 8 years ago anyway, maybe 9......i 'discovered' it via that Dougall i cant believe i missed from empiregunsight Peter Frost.

I think not understanding what it was didnt help either. 'sorry what? a double barrel rifle? how does that work then?'

Always liked sxs shottys and Mausers til then, when my needs changed.

After i missed that one i never found anything much to compare to it......sigh.

'high relief engraved with elephants and rhinos, best quality, lockfast action with original 1920's motor case in leather'

Sheesh.

Ben

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