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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Help please! Found my gun!
      #77692 - 30/04/07 08:00 PM

Ok its been some time now that i have been searching and taking into account all sorts of things regarding heavy caliber rifles.

Finally i have found something which suits me, which i dont want to pass up.

Now, this is where i need urgent help;

Gun is marked 25 bore on the rifle side, its an old hammer cape gun. Other side is marked 13g but should just have been intended as 12g yet bored a bit too small?

Now, the chamber has been cast/checked as .577x3" express.......i thought 25 bores were usually snider or similar?

The firearm is being restored totally.

What im desperate to know is; can .25 be .577 express, i see it on this site and others as '20/577 or 20 bore/577' Is this due to nobody knowing what a 24/25 bore is in general, and so using 20 bore as all know what size this round is?

Is this the only 12g x .577 express cape made?!

Many thanks for all and any answers, i am lost......

Ben

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Help please! Found my gun! [Re: empirevr]
      #77696 - 30/04/07 09:43 PM

empirevr:
The 20-bore/.577 is an altogether different cartridge from the .577 straight (either 2 3/4 or 3 inch). The 20/.577 is the 20-bore 2 3/4 inch brass rifle (or bore-gun) case necked down to .585. It is hence a bottle-neck cartridge.

If the chamber-cast from your 25-bore barrel mikes out as a .577 x 3-inch, then simply assemble components and load away. There is plenty of data for loading that cartridge, either with black powder or a 'nitro-for-black' equivalent. Do some homework on fillers though, if choosing to load the latter. A search should turn up a number of threads on this forum containing plenty of 'good oil'.

With modern N-for-B loads, you should be able to load to 7 or 8 tons pressure, much kinder on the gun than the original 10 or 11 ton loads with BP. The lack of corrosion with nitro is another bonus when trying to extend the lives of these marvellous old things.

BTW, many Brit and Continental 12-bore shotguns were bored 13-bore. As long as the chamber accepts the 12-bore case, no worries. Finding a modern low-pressure shot-shell to match the BP pressures (around 6,000 psi?) is a bit harder of course, though not impossible. I would recommend sticking to BP initially, in 2 1/2 inch cases rather than 2 3/4 I presume.

...and further:
Quote:

Is this the only 12g x .577 express cape made?!


...a few modern versions have been built in Melbourne, Australia, on the Greener 'Empire' action. An early thread by NitroX showed photos as I recall. It's a very practical combination for a cape gun IMHO, like the Paradox ads of the day "Anything from snipe to tiger!"


--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Help please! Found my gun! [Re: Marrakai]
      #77698 - 30/04/07 10:10 PM

Thanks Marrakai!!

I am hoping to use n for b loads in it to avoid damage to the gun.

So used to the .577 snider/12g capes that im amazed by this gun.

Got me stumped as to why it was proofed 25b rifle instead of .577 express....unless there was a .577x3" round before the famous bpe one???

Gun is being fully overhauled also.

Always liked the .577x3 round.....the 2 3/4 and 3 1/4 just seem like impossible versions of the same thing.

Gun will see good times! All from rabbit to boar i expect, and more besides!

Im thinking of getting brass 12g shells for it, and firing a mixture of shot types including 12g patched ball so as to have dr capability with pigs.

Many thanks.

Ben

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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3595
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Help please! Found my gun! [Re: empirevr]
      #77707 - 30/04/07 10:50 PM

empirevr:
Found the link to the modern Greener cape gun:







This was a cape gun advertised for sale some time ago and featured as a "double of the day" in the good'ol days on NE.com:

WW Greener no. 70571 combo 12 bore shotgun by .577 rifle. Originally a 12 ga SxS shotgun, it has been converted to a Cape gun and is in excellent rebuilt condition. Based on the Empire action with a new mono block, the work was completed 2 years ago {longer now of course}. With 24" barrels with 1 standing rear sight. Restocked butt and forend with excellent wood.

Weight is 10 lbs, LOP is 14 ¾" over a Silver's pad. DAC is 1 1/8", DAH is 2".

Hope this is of some interest, and not just another silly distraction!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Help please! Found my gun! [Re: Marrakai]
      #77710 - 30/04/07 11:58 PM

Thanks!

Nice piece, i have a bit of a thing for Greener actually......i reckon they would sit at the top for me; huge premises in Victorian London, super quality WORKING rifles and shottys.

Gun im on to is a hammer,Jones underlever, by Ingram of Scotland.

How many leaf sights should be on such a gun? 'smith asked as gun is stripped ready for overhaul and sights are not on it yet.

Any info about Charles Ingram would be greatly appreciated. He was a high quality maker was he not? i.e. not the mixed results as received by some traders/makers?

Many thanks once again,

Ben

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