Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***
You are not logged in. [Login] Main Index · Search · Active Topics
New user · Who's Online · FAQ · Calendar

Shooting & Reloading - Mausers, Big Bores and others >> Big Bore Rifles
Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
Scratch
.224 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 8
.450 Dakota or 458 Lott
      #77621 - 29/04/07 08:47 AM


Is their much difference between these two calibers? I'm thinking of buying a Model 77 in a .458 lott and have it bored into a 450 Dakota if it's worth it? Is it possible to load the Dakota with 500 grain bullets and reach 2500 fps with Ruger's 23" barrel.

Thanks for the information.
Scratch

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Scratch]
      #77622 - 29/04/07 08:51 AM

I'd stay with the 458 Lott for purposes of availability and price of ammo. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schamankungulo
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: dnovo]
      #77623 - 29/04/07 08:58 AM

The Lott is all you'll ever need ..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77624 - 29/04/07 09:00 AM

I've heard a lot of good things about it. Sorry, couldn't resist that one. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Scratch]
      #77626 - 29/04/07 09:06 AM

Trying to get a 450 into the Ruger might not work. There might not be enough room inside the magazine box for the fatter Rigby cases unless you want to settle for 1 or 2 down if it will go.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bigdog
.375 member


Reged: 05/02/06
Posts: 559
Loc: Southern Illinois
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: 475Guy]
      #77637 - 29/04/07 03:07 PM

Max hand load out of my CZ550 magnum in 450 Dakota is 2470ft/sec with the 500 grain bullets. 6670 ft. lbs is plenty to get the job done.

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: bigdog]
      #77641 - 29/04/07 04:14 PM

Just my 2 cents--

I have no African experience and little game experience with 458 "heavies" (limited to one bear), and thus speak only what I have read but I think that velocities above 2300 in 458 caliber may be wasted due to the excellent sectional density of the 500 gr bullet(.341)At 2300fps this high SD bullet penetrates well enough indeed. At faster velocities(2500) is not all that excess energy just blowing thru the animal and putting energy into the backstop behind the animal?

Does the 450 Dakota overpenetrate on DG with good 500 gr bullets??

Thus I would take the 458Lott over the 450 Dakota. If I wanted to use a higher energy cartridge I would go for a larger caliber like a 500 A Square shooting a 600 gr bullet(decent SD) at 2200 or there abouts.Just MHO, and I hope not to offend.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (29/04/07 04:16 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kalunga
.333 member


Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
Loc: Germany
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77646 - 29/04/07 09:19 PM

I agree that 2300 fps is enough but the Dakota has the advantadge of a considerably lower gas pressure, which might be better in very hot climate like certain parts of Africa (or Australia?). I have heard from a hunter that took a shot at a western savanna buffalo in Benin with his .416 Remington. The bull charged but the action of his Blaser R93 refused to open due to excessive pressure ! The backup from the guide just saved the day.
Of course a Ruger Magnum is more reliable than a R93 but still I would prefer the Dakota.It has no useless belt, and ammo availability is very relative in Africa anyways. Just MHO.

Kalunga

Wicked good hunting !!!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schamankungulo
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Kalunga]
      #77649 - 29/04/07 10:40 PM

You can load the Lott to 2300 easily with no pressure issues .. If ya have to have a few extra fps , then make it an Ackley , then you could shoot the Ackley , Lott or Win Mag as well in one rifle ..
Get the Lott and be done with it .. If you're shooting a bolt gun at DG , then magazine capacity is more important than a few feet in velocity ..
I can assure you that anything properly hit will not know the diff between the Lott and Rigby ..
The belt isnt totally useless in the larger calibers .. Ammo availabilty in Africa is a joke regardless of caliber .. And very expensive to boot ..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77650 - 30/04/07 12:13 AM

I find the anti-belt argument to be inane, and much more about theory than it is about substance. Countless professional hunters and clients have relied upon belted-magnums, notably the 375 H&H and 458 Win. Mag., since 1912, and I've yet to hear of anyone who's made a specific reference to an actual problem that the belted case has caused them in the field, or even at the range. I've been shooting belted-magnums rather extensively since 1977, and I have yet to experience one single problem that i can lay on the belted case design.

Yet, outfits like Dakota and various stooge gunwriters have attempted to create enterprise by denouncing the belted cases, while guys like me largely ignored them, and have continued to rely on belted-magnums for a great deal of successful hunting, and with no problems whatsoever.

The anti-belt hype is enough to keep me away from all of Dakota's proprietory cartridges in and of itself. I also think there's a very strong chance that Dakota will eventually go down the drain altogether, and all of the financial gymnastics and stunts that have been applied to that troubled firm will eventually catch up to it burn Dakota to the ground. THEN what happens to ammo and brass availability?

All things considered, the 458 Lott makes much more sense than the 450 Dakota, and I think the Lott will be around for as long as African hunting is going to be around............

AD

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Scratch
.224 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 8
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: allenday]
      #77655 - 30/04/07 04:06 AM

Gentlemen

Thank you for you're opinions, I appreciate them very much. I might just stay with the Lott in Ruger Model 77. I have a 416 Rigby in the Model 77 and like it very much.

How hard is it to find brass for the Ackley? And how long is the brass lenght?

Scratch

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schamankungulo
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Scratch]
      #77659 - 30/04/07 05:07 AM

The Ackley and the Lott share the same case ( 375 Holland ), there is a slight difference in the neck/shoulder area .. You're not gaining much with the Ackley ( if anything ) in my experience less than 100 fps , which aint much ...
Forget I ever said anything about the Ackley ...

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
walksfar
.275 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77661 - 30/04/07 05:16 AM

Thats true. And to anyone who wants to ream a lott to an ackley, don't do it. It's not worth it.
However, there is a new round in SA that's looking promising for myself, and that's the .458 3" South African. But, for all my searching, I have found not one reamer, and I must admit, I just don't feel like going through the hassle of ordering a custom one.
Basically, the 3" will do what the lott will do, only with lower pressure. Of course you can up the horsepower over the lott, but then you will still have the pressure the lott has. And with a standard lott magazine, I don't know, there may be some tweaking to do there.
The .450 dakota is out for me, and I'd prefer a .450 rigby if going with a larger case, but then you'd have to open up the bolt face.
Ahhhhhh....I'm rambling.
But then, we could all just buy .460 weatherbys(in a custom rifle-NOT a weatherby rifle), and download them to just the right velocity. I personally like 2400fps for anything other than traditional nitros, which should stay at original spec. In a bolt gun, I like 2400, and my lott will only do 2330, and that's with 85grs of 4320 with the 500woodleigh. And again, that's published velocity and not real world velocity, so I don't actually know what mine is doing-I don't have a chrony. And, that's tip-top end for the lott.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (30/04/07 05:24 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: allenday]
      #77673 - 30/04/07 08:52 AM

The belted thing is ridiculous and I agree the belted rounds hunt just fine.

No way would I buy a bolt with a Dakota cartridge in ANY caliber.

I agree that soon they may disappear and then those shooting their stuff will be royally screwed indeed!!

Imagine having to rebarrel cause you can't get ammo!!

I would feel like a fool--

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (30/04/07 08:53 AM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77679 - 30/04/07 10:41 AM

You could always reload.

However, I agree that a cartridge without factory support is doomed, and resale value of the gun will drop precipitously.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
475Guy
.400 member


Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: walksfar]
      #77681 - 30/04/07 10:51 AM

The 450Dakota and the 450Rigby are basically the same round. The only difference is where they put the shoulder. Both will do 2450 easily and both are derived from the 416Rigby brass.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NitroXAdministrator
.700 member


Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39877
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: 475Guy]
      #77704 - 30/04/07 10:32 PM

What about the .450 Rigby?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
allenday
.333 member


Reged: 18/04/04
Posts: 318
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: NitroX]
      #77762 - 01/05/07 06:22 AM

The Rigby sounds more dignified to me than the Dakota........

AD

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Yochanan
.375 member


Reged: 26/01/03
Posts: 912
Loc: Volksdiktatur Schweden
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Kalunga]
      #77781 - 01/05/07 09:54 AM


450 Rigby rimless and 460 Wby are perhaps the best suited vehicles for 550-600 grain bullet at +2200 fps, and 450 Rigby rimless would my choice. With the number of companies offering 416 Rigby ammo, components etc. brass for reforming is not going to be very difficult to find, worst case scenario, 460/416/378wby with belt removed could be used. Norma and Kynoch offers 450 Rigby rimless factory ammo.

Questions for all experienced 458 Lott owners, which powder shall be used to get 2300fps with a 500 grain woodleigh FMJ? Most loads I have found are 106-130% in filling ratio or exceed the (CIP) max pressure

Nothing wrong with Dakota cartridges- never got very well spread or picked up by any other maker. Miller & Greiss, and DWM designed cartridges based on 404 Jeffery case long ago. Hopefully the Dakota 76 action will survive.

Kalunga-
No rubber or rawhide mallet in the kit from Blaser? I know of one case from Zambezi Valley with sticky Remington ammo. Perhaps Remington’s initial batches was loaded a bit to hot, hopefully factory ammo manufactured today is loaded with powders that are less temperature sensitive like ADI. I would not like to venture the hot and humid African bush with ammo loaded to absolute pressure and would rather sacrifice some performance in exchange for reliable function.

Pity that wildcats like 458 African Express, 450 Vincent short, 450 G&A etc., based on slightly shortened 404 Jeffery case never made it into production. 2300-2350fps with 500 grain, 2150-2200fps with 550 grain bullet from 22-24 inch barrel at 60-62.000psi and still short enough to find a standard a mauser action

/Johan

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Schamankungulo
.300 member


Reged: 21/04/07
Posts: 115
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Yochanan]
      #77793 - 01/05/07 11:45 AM

Johan I have used hefty charges of Alliant RL15 (85.0 grains )and Accurate Arms AAC2520 ( 85.0 grains )as well as IMR 3031 ( 80.0 grains ), all these will put you right at 2300 in the Lott .. I have plenty more to choose from as well ..

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
walksfar
.275 member


Reged: 13/11/05
Posts: 87
Loc: East Texas
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77794 - 01/05/07 12:04 PM

For the Lott---at 2300fps, with a 500 grain woodleigh---I use 84grs. of IMR-4320 for 5,875 foot pounds. Which holds it's own with the .500 Nitro (in energy only).
This is not from my own development, this came from ol' Jack himself, in his notes.
Although he said he backed down to 83grs. to eliminate stickyness in extraction, but I personally have never had that problem in any situation whatsoever, but maybe I'm lucky.
For an even 85 grs., it will go 2330fps, and develop 6,020 foot pounds. I've used that particular load successfully before on game, however, I've backed down to 84grs, as a norm now for myself.

--------------------
..Faith in God and the Mauser...

Member-DRSS

Edited by walksfar (01/05/07 01:03 PM)

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: allenday]
      #77812 - 01/05/07 11:32 PM

I have a problem with belted cartridges, but not with the original ones, like the .300 and 375 H&H, nor the straight cased ones, like the .458 Winchester Magnum and the .458 Lott. The H&H cases don't have enough shoulder to headspace reliably, and the straight cases have no shoulder at all, and must use the belt (which is really a modified rim) for that purpose.

The problem arises with cases like the .264 WM, the .338 WM, the 7mm RM and other similar cases, which have a perfectly good shoulder to headspace on. With the cartridge in effect headspacing on both the belt and the shoulder, unless you are super careful in your loading technique, the case starts to stretch just above the solid head, which will eventually result in case separation. For the average hunter this is not a problem, but for the long range target shooter, who may go through hundreds of reloads in a season, and who doesn't need a case separation in the middle of a match, it is a different story. I used to shoot a 7mm RM at 1000 yards, and I found the belt a nuisance, since I had to be careful not to set back the shoulder in the resizing operation. Eventually I started using a neck sizing die and full length resized only once every four or five reloadings.

For a cartridge with enough shoulder to effectively headspace, the belt is only an affectation. However, it did sell: witness the demise of the .284 Winchester, a cartridge identical to the .375 H&H at the head, but without a belt. The fact that it even exists at all today is due to the success of its wildcat offspring, the 6.5X.284.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26992
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: xausa]
      #77814 - 02/05/07 01:24 AM

Quote:

I have a problem with belted cartridges, but not with the original ones, like the .300 and 375 H&H, nor the straight cased ones, like the .458 Winchester Magnum and the .458 Lott. The H&H cases don't have enough shoulder to headspace reliably, and the straight cases have no shoulder at all, and must use the belt (which is really a modified rim) for that purpose.




;
; In actual fact, both the Super .300 and the .375H&H have enough shoulder for maintaining proper headspace.
: Belts today vary in headspace measurement to over .020", which is no 'maintanance' at all. Short case life is guaranteed when one reloads and uses the belt for headspacing, rather than the shoulders. Of course, straight cases need the belt but headspace with it (today) is sloppy. The bottle necked cases don't need the belt. Even the old .400 Whelen had enough shoulder to maintain proper headspace, just not enough of the people who tried to load for one, had enough knowledge to do the job properly. Ignorance creates problems where knowledge eliminates it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Kalunga
.333 member


Reged: 16/06/06
Posts: 328
Loc: Germany
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: DarylS]
      #77833 - 02/05/07 04:31 AM

Thank You Daryl !
I didn`t ecpect to hurt anybody when I remarked that a belt is useless. I referred to the .450 Dakota and of course not the .458 Watts/Lott. I just believe the belt wouldn`t improve the cartridge, the sexy shoulder surely ensures proper headspace, as it does in the .416 Rigby. And just maybe the great old .375 H&H belted rimless would be just as great without a belt.
Sorry again for not choosing the right words.

Kalunga

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
jro45
.300 member


Reged: 25/12/03
Posts: 192
Loc: DE, USA
Re: .450 Dakota or 458 Lott [Re: Kalunga]
      #78148 - 07/05/07 06:32 AM

I have the CZ458 Lott Safari Magnum. It will shoot the 500 gr bullet at 2330 FPS. I shot as 6" thick
Solid oak piece of wood with a soft nose 500 gr bullet at 2300 FPS and it went right thru it. I shot it at 50 yds, just like an Elephant coming at you.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)


Previous topic Previous   View all topics Index   Next topic Next   Threaded Mode Threaded  

Extra information
0 registered and 88 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:   

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 7082

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved